i think Valve has proven themselves on the engine development which i think is the most substantial component of their games. but i dunno, Lithtech engines seems to be very flexible as well, but is rarely used by other companies other than themselves (Monolith). i wish Raven would tackle other engines as well (UT2003, Lithtech Jupiter, etc.) and SOF2 is just a matter of opinion as well. i mean, i dont think it has clans and supporters for nothing? getting Quake 4 to be worked on by Raven Software is a very good idea indeed, so hats off to ID as for the classics, thanks for reminding me, ive been itching to play Take no Prisoners for a while now