Vote for Kerry

[Gryph]

No, Bush won because a program manager at FOX news called Bush the winner of the election even though the true number was far too close to call. Then, the rest of the networks just fell suit.

That doesn't really make much sense... new casters don't have that much power. Read this, it's from http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-D...renheit-911.htm. This guy isn't a republican or democrat, he is an indepedant who voted for Nader in the 2000 elections, just like Moore did.

 

Fahrenheit 9/11 begins on election night 2000. We are first shown Al Gore rocking on stage with famous musicians and a high-spirited crowd. The conspicuous sign on stage reads "Florida Victory." Moore creates the impression that Gore was celebrating his victory in Florida. Moore's voiceover claims, "And little Stevie Wonder, he seemed so happy, like a miracle had taken place." The verb tense of past perfect ("had taken") furthers the impression that the election has been completed.

 

Actually, the rally took place in the early hours of election day, before polls had even opened. Gore did campaign in Florida on election day, but went home to Tennessee to await the results. The "Florida Victory" sign reflected Gore’s hopes, not any actual election results. ("Gore Campaigns Into Election Day," Associated Press, Nov. 7, 2000.)

 

The film shows CBS and CNN calling Florida for Al Gore. According to the narrator, "Then something called the Fox News Channel called the election in favor of the other guy….All of a sudden the other networks said, 'Hey, if Fox said it, it must be true.'"

 

We then see NBC anchor Tom Brokaw stating, "All of us networks made a mistake and projected Florida in the Al Gore column. It was our mistake."

 

Moore thus creates the false impression that the networks withdrew their claim about Gore winning Florida when they heard that Fox said that Bush won Florida.

 

In fact, the networks which called Florida for Gore did so early in the evening—before polls had even closed in the Florida panhandle, which is part of the Central Time Zone. NBC called Florida for Gore at 7:49:40 p.m., Eastern Time. This was 10 minutes before polls closed in the Florida panhandle. Thirty seconds later, CBS called Florida for Gore. And at 7:52 p.m., Fox called Florida for Gore. Moore never lets the audience know that Fox was among the networks which made the error of calling Florida for Gore prematurely. Then at 8:02 p.m., ABC called Florida for Gore. Only ABC had waited until the Florida polls were closed.

 

About an hour before the polls closed in panhandle Florida, the networks called the U.S. Senate race in favor of the Democratic candidate. The networks seriously compounded the problem because from 6-7 Central Time, they repeatedly announced that polls had closed in Florida--even though polls were open in the panhandle. (See also Joan Konner, James Risser & Ben Wattenberg, Television's Performance on Election Night 2000: A Report for CNN, Jan. 29, 2001.)

 

The false announcements that the polls were closed, as well as the premature calls (the Presidential race ten minutes early; the Senate race an hour early), may have cost Bush thousands of votes from the conservative panhandle, as discouraged last-minute voters heard that their state had already been decided; some last-minute voters on their way to the polling place turned around and went home. Other voters who were waiting in line left the polling place. In Florida, as elsewhere, voters who have arrived at the polling place before closing time often end up voting after closing time, because of long lines. The conventional wisdom of politics is that supporters of the losing candidate are most likely to give up on voting when they hear that their side has already lost. Thus, on election night 1980, when incumbent President Jimmy Carter gave a concession speech while polls were still open on the west coast, the early concession was blamed for costing the Democrats several Congressional seats in the West, such as that of 20-year incumbent James Corman. The fact that all the networks had declared Reagan a landslide winner while west coast voting was still in progress was also blamed for Democratic losses in the West; Congress even held hearings about prohibiting the disclosure of exit polls before voting had ended in the any of the 48 contiguous states.

 

Even if the premature television calls affected all potential voters equally, the effect was to reduce Republican votes significantly, because the Florida panhandle is a Republican stronghold. Most of Central Time Zone Florida is in the 1st Congressional District, which is known as the "Redneck Riviera." In that district, Bob Dole beat Bill Clinton by 69,000 votes in 1996, even though Clinton won the state by 300,000 votes. So depress overall turnout in the panhandle, and you will necessarily depress more Republican than Democratic votes. A 2001 study by John Lott suggested that the early calls cost Bush at least 7,500 votes, and perhaps many more. Another study reported that the networks reduced panhandle turn-out by about 19,000 votes, costing Bush about 12,000 votes and Gore about 7,000 votes.

 

At 10:00 p.m., which networks took the lead in retracting the premature Florida win for Gore? They were CNN and CBS, not Fox. (The two networks were using a shared Decision Team.) See Linda Mason, Kathleen Francovic & Kathleen Hall Jamieson, "CBS News Coverage of Election Night 2000: Investigation, Analysis, Recommendations" (CBS News, Jan. 2001), pp. 12-25.)

 

In fact, Fox did not retract its claim that Gore had won Florida until 2 a.m.--four hours after other networks had withdrawn the call.

 

Over four hours later, at 2:16 a.m., Fox projected Bush as the Florida winner, as did all the other networks by 2:20 a.m.

 

At 3:59 a.m., CBS took the lead in retracting the Florida call for Bush. All the other networks, including Fox, followed the CBS lead within eight minutes. That the networks arrived at similar conclusions within a short period of time is not surprising, since they were all using the same data from the Voter News Service. (Mason, et al. "CBS News Coverage.") As the CBS timeline details, throughout the evening all networks used VNS data to call states, even though VNS had not called the state; sometimes the network calls were made hours ahead of the VNS call.

 

Moore’s editing technique of the election night segment is typical of his style: all the video clips are real clips, and nothing he says is, narrowly speaking, false. But notice how he says, "Then something called the Fox News Channel called the election in favor of the other guy…" The impression created is that the Fox call of Florida for Bush came soon after the CBS/CNN calls of Florida for Gore, and that Fox caused the other networks to change ("All of a sudden the other networks said, 'Hey, if Fox said it, it must be true.'")

 

This is the essence of the Moore technique: cleverly blending half-truths to deceive the viewer.

 

I take everything Moore says with a grain of salt just like I take whatever Sean Hannity, Michael Savage, or Rush Limbaugh say.

[-VIOLENCE-]

LMAO! Look at this bumper sticker about Bush;

 

 

DAMN RIGHT a village is missing an idiot

[L.S.D]

LMAO! Look at this bumper sticker about Bush;

 

 

DAMN RIGHT a village is missing an idiot

You been drinking?

[random guy]

No, Bush won because a program manager at FOX news called Bush the winner of the election even though the true number was far too close to call. Then, the rest of the networks just fell suit.

That doesn't really make much sense... new casters don't have that much power. Read this, it's from http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-D...renheit-911.htm. This guy isn't a republican or democrat, he is an indepedant who voted for Nader in the 2000 elections, just like Moore did.

 

Fahrenheit 9/11 begins on election night 2000. We are first shown Al Gore rocking on stage with famous musicians and a high-spirited crowd. The conspicuous sign on stage reads "Florida Victory." Moore creates the impression that Gore was celebrating his victory in Florida. Moore's voiceover claims, "And little Stevie Wonder, he seemed so happy, like a miracle had taken place." The verb tense of past perfect ("had taken") furthers the impression that the election has been completed.

 

Actually, the rally took place in the early hours of election day, before polls had even opened. Gore did campaign in Florida on election day, but went home to Tennessee to await the results. The "Florida Victory" sign reflected Gore’s hopes, not any actual election results. ("Gore Campaigns Into Election Day," Associated Press, Nov. 7, 2000.)

 

The film shows CBS and CNN calling Florida for Al Gore. According to the narrator, "Then something called the Fox News Channel called the election in favor of the other guy….All of a sudden the other networks said, 'Hey, if Fox said it, it must be true.'"

 

We then see NBC anchor Tom Brokaw stating, "All of us networks made a mistake and projected Florida in the Al Gore column. It was our mistake."

 

Moore thus creates the false impression that the networks withdrew their claim about Gore winning Florida when they heard that Fox said that Bush won Florida.

 

In fact, the networks which called Florida for Gore did so early in the evening—before polls had even closed in the Florida panhandle, which is part of the Central Time Zone. NBC called Florida for Gore at 7:49:40 p.m., Eastern Time. This was 10 minutes before polls closed in the Florida panhandle. Thirty seconds later, CBS called Florida for Gore. And at 7:52 p.m., Fox called Florida for Gore. Moore never lets the audience know that Fox was among the networks which made the error of calling Florida for Gore prematurely. Then at 8:02 p.m., ABC called Florida for Gore. Only ABC had waited until the Florida polls were closed.

 

About an hour before the polls closed in panhandle Florida, the networks called the U.S. Senate race in favor of the Democratic candidate. The networks seriously compounded the problem because from 6-7 Central Time, they repeatedly announced that polls had closed in Florida--even though polls were open in the panhandle. (See also Joan Konner, James Risser & Ben Wattenberg, Television's Performance on Election Night 2000: A Report for CNN, Jan. 29, 2001.)

 

The false announcements that the polls were closed, as well as the premature calls (the Presidential race ten minutes early; the Senate race an hour early), may have cost Bush thousands of votes from the conservative panhandle, as discouraged last-minute voters heard that their state had already been decided; some last-minute voters on their way to the polling place turned around and went home. Other voters who were waiting in line left the polling place. In Florida, as elsewhere, voters who have arrived at the polling place before closing time often end up voting after closing time, because of long lines. The conventional wisdom of politics is that supporters of the losing candidate are most likely to give up on voting when they hear that their side has already lost. Thus, on election night 1980, when incumbent President Jimmy Carter gave a concession speech while polls were still open on the west coast, the early concession was blamed for costing the Democrats several Congressional seats in the West, such as that of 20-year incumbent James Corman. The fact that all the networks had declared Reagan a landslide winner while west coast voting was still in progress was also blamed for Democratic losses in the West; Congress even held hearings about prohibiting the disclosure of exit polls before voting had ended in the any of the 48 contiguous states.

 

Even if the premature television calls affected all potential voters equally, the effect was to reduce Republican votes significantly, because the Florida panhandle is a Republican stronghold. Most of Central Time Zone Florida is in the 1st Congressional District, which is known as the "Redneck Riviera." In that district, Bob Dole beat Bill Clinton by 69,000 votes in 1996, even though Clinton won the state by 300,000 votes. So depress overall turnout in the panhandle, and you will necessarily depress more Republican than Democratic votes. A 2001 study by John Lott suggested that the early calls cost Bush at least 7,500 votes, and perhaps many more. Another study reported that the networks reduced panhandle turn-out by about 19,000 votes, costing Bush about 12,000 votes and Gore about 7,000 votes.

 

At 10:00 p.m., which networks took the lead in retracting the premature Florida win for Gore? They were CNN and CBS, not Fox. (The two networks were using a shared Decision Team.) See Linda Mason, Kathleen Francovic & Kathleen Hall Jamieson, "CBS News Coverage of Election Night 2000: Investigation, Analysis, Recommendations" (CBS News, Jan. 2001), pp. 12-25.)

 

In fact, Fox did not retract its claim that Gore had won Florida until 2 a.m.--four hours after other networks had withdrawn the call.

 

Over four hours later, at 2:16 a.m., Fox projected Bush as the Florida winner, as did all the other networks by 2:20 a.m.

 

At 3:59 a.m., CBS took the lead in retracting the Florida call for Bush. All the other networks, including Fox, followed the CBS lead within eight minutes. That the networks arrived at similar conclusions within a short period of time is not surprising, since they were all using the same data from the Voter News Service. (Mason, et al. "CBS News Coverage.") As the CBS timeline details, throughout the evening all networks used VNS data to call states, even though VNS had not called the state; sometimes the network calls were made hours ahead of the VNS call.

 

Moore’s editing technique of the election night segment is typical of his style: all the video clips are real clips, and nothing he says is, narrowly speaking, false. But notice how he says, "Then something called the Fox News Channel called the election in favor of the other guy…" The impression created is that the Fox call of Florida for Bush came soon after the CBS/CNN calls of Florida for Gore, and that Fox caused the other networks to change ("All of a sudden the other networks said, 'Hey, if Fox said it, it must be true.'")

 

This is the essence of the Moore technique: cleverly blending half-truths to deceive the viewer.

 

I take everything Moore says with a grain of salt just like I take whatever Sean Hannity, Michael Savage, or Rush Limbaugh say.

All of that may indeed have made a difference - in a constitutional election if both sides were playing fair. But they weren't. Bush STOLE this election, full stop end of story. It doesn't even matter if the FOX thing is a little innacurate (and as I have seen the film, I don't believe the criticisms myself), because ALL of the other facts are still true.

As for the actual article, there's nothing in there that changes my mind that this election was stolen, or that Farrenheit 911 was nothing more than (admittedly partisan) truth. People keep trying to attack work of people like Moore and stuff with insignificant details that do not detract from his work. But that doesn't matter, for just as most people who watch Moore's stuff are already convinced the president is dirty, the only people who'll watch films like "michael moore is a big fat stupid white man" are the people who are already convinced that Moore is a liar - in other words those people who support the things Moore attacks. I once fell for one of these stories, and was for a time convinced that "bowling for columbine" was a badly edited propaganda movie - but then within a week Moore came out with individual points to defend the attacks - just as he has done with farrenheit 9/11 at his website.

 

http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911no...index.php?id=16

 

So I believe I will still take my news from people like Moore, and not the right-wing propaganda machines constantly seeking to debunk him.

[Aoshi]

bush is an ass

kerry is a liar

there both idiots with shady past

bush has an extra stike for we've seen wat he's capable of (nothing but vacations)

and i don't trust kerry much either

well that mean s vote for ralf nader

 

off topic check this movie clip preety screwed

http://download.ifilm.com/qt/portal/2642103_200.mov

hey who'd u like to see this person with e the device replaced with

Edited September 5, 2004 by Aoshi

[montpics]

Okay check the movie out then.

[Gryph]

All of that may indeed have made a difference - in a constitutional election if both sides were playing fair. But they weren't. Bush STOLE this election, full stop end of story. It doesn't even matter if the FOX thing is a little innacurate (and as I have seen the film,  I don't believe the criticisms myself), because ALL of the other facts are still true.

As for the actual article, there's nothing in there that changes my mind that this election was stolen, or that Farrenheit 911 was nothing more than (admittedly partisan) truth. People keep trying to attack work of people like Moore and stuff with insignificant details that do not detract from his work. But that doesn't matter, for just as most people who watch Moore's stuff are already convinced the president is dirty, the only people who'll watch films like "michael moore is a big fat stupid white man" are the people who are already convinced that Moore is a liar - in other words those people who support the things Moore attacks. I once fell for one of these stories, and was for a time convinced that "bowling for columbine" was a badly edited propaganda movie - but then within a week Moore came out with individual points to defend the attacks - just as he has done with farrenheit 9/11 at his website.

 

http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911no...index.php?id=16

 

So I believe I will still take my news from people like Moore, and not the right-wing propaganda machines constantly seeking to debunk him.

But Bush won the Electoral College vote by 271 to 267...and there was no controversy in that. It was just that Gore won the popular vote by half a million but lost the Electoral College vote. That hasn't happened since 1888 so it's just weird but its the way our voting laws work. I don't like it and I hope they do something about the Electoral College but that's how it is.

[Sturmvogel]

Well Gryph, you would think so but lets take a closer look at how the outcome played out. We can set aside the conflict of interest in Secretary of State Catherine Harris running the election process in Florida while heading the Bush Team their as well. And we can just put aside from now how she and her cohorts blacklisted individuals who had names similar to felons, had misdeminors but were kept from voting anyway....and more. But long story short, the Supreme Court of the United States steps in. They don't unanimously vote to stop the recount giving Bush Florida's electoral votes and the win. It's a 5-4 split!!! What the hell!! The Supreme Court is faced with probably one of the most important cases in history and its handed down in a split decison.

 

This has never happened before in our political history. It only makes it worse when you realize that Gore received more popular votes. However, receiving a majority of the popular votes does not directly secure the presidency. Most of the time the candidate with the most popular votes receives more electoral votes. In the 2000 election, that obvioulsy didn't happen for Gore.

[Wizard]

Thats a sexy big sig.

 

 

Bush sucks.

 

 

I've said my part.

[Gryph]

It happened once before in the presidential election between encumbant Grover Clevland and Benjamin Harrison with Clevland winning the popular vote but not the electoral vote. It's a flocked up situation but its the only way states can get somewhat equal representation.

 

And I think Gore (or atleast John McCain) should be president right now, I know he was cheated because of the Electoral College.

Edited September 5, 2004 by GryphonKlaw

[Sturmvogel]

No Gryph.....I mean the Supreme Court stepping and stoping the recounts. And it's happened more than once. It's occured five times, but only three actually mirror the situation in 2000.