SNK is too lazy!!!!!

[Elazul Yagami]

i'd rather have 10 interesting characters worth playing with

 

 

than 32 rehashes of the same characters, or 32 dull characters.

[zero129]

i'd rather have 10 interesting characters worth playing with

 

 

than 32 rehashes of the same characters, or 32 dull characters.

Whats that meant to mean??, is that about capcom or snk?, cos imo both games have some very good characters, no one here is saying they don't, all we are talking about is who does the most updates to their charecters.

[Carnicero]

load up the arcade version of each of them games (i know you cant use mvc2 or sf3 but that doesn't really matter), then capter an image of the characters from all them games i just said

 

I did exactly that with Ryu and Terry (the two characters that appear the most for each camp). That list of game changes I made a few posts back wasn't imagined, it was culled from the process you suggest in your quote. From all games. Excluding ONLY the Street Fighter III series. I have all the games in either ROM or console port versions and went through them all out of curiosity. I watched a slideshow of the pics I took and the SNK games stood out more, while Capcom games had way too many pallette changes between entire series even, not within a single series like your KOF observation. I even went and look through Darkstalkers, which had utterly no changes in any of both the American or Japanese verions, excluding the change from red blood to Mortal Kombat style white milk/sweat)

 

since kof 94, the snk charecters have not really changed at all

 

That's rediculous. Kyo has DRASTICALLY changed twice, other characters were added from prior SNK games (in case you want to count Final Fight characters in SF), Terry changed at least 2 or 3 times since 94, Andy Bogard changed repeatedly, Robert Garcia went through outfit changes, Athena got a retro costume similar to her original game's outfit, and so on. Street Fighter really only drastically changed Chun Li.

Edited January 21, 2004 by Carnicero

[The TeamPlayer]

I have to agree that capcom is lazier.

 

At least SNK is still releasing new fighters... even if they do reuse stuff.

[random guy]

Hi, reading these posts made me curious about some technical emulation questions I never really had thought of before. I know this isn't really the place, but you seem to be the guys to answer them (plus at least this forum is active). I don't really know much about the technical side of emulation, bt I am curious.

 

Here is the question: Why is it that emulators like Kawaks and Nebula can only emulate cetain arcade games? I realise that there is a difference between CPS-1 CPS-2 and Neo Geo - but as I understand it people have been making games on these systems for YEARS.

 

Plus, IF Kawaks etc... CAN run SVC Chaos etc...after some tweaking, and that game came out in 2003 (I think), does that mean that modern arcade machines are still being made to support these dated systems?

 

If that is the case, does it not seem odd that we are up to trilinear gourad-shaded graphics (or whatever) on the PS2, X-BOX etc..., whereas arcade game makers are still making games for a system which (I believe) had its peak in the early 1990s?

 

What about the more fancy updated arcade machines? Are they in neo-geo format or some new system? If this new system is around and better, why are people still making games for the Neo Geo?

 

Sorry if these questions are really stoopid, but I hope someone can answer me.

[StriderVM]

OK, they are actually very interesting questions, and I'll try to answer them as far as I can.

 

For different emulators emulating only certain hardware, err, ask them. Really, since they are the ones who programmed them..... ^^

 

But if your question is like, why isn't Marvel VS Capcom 2 emulated or something like that, it is because that emulation is well, emulation, try to look up it's definition somewhere.... =P

 

Also, since emulating another hardware is hard (The faster the hardware, the harder it is to emulate), and most often there are no released technical specifications of the hardware. (No hardware stuff to copy to, no emulator)

 

Also, the consoles of today either use DVD or any similar stuff. They are actually relatively inexpensive to produce and copy. And since the aim for arcade machines is long life, they have to manufacture "cartridge" versions of these arcade games. (I'm talking about Soul Calibur 2, Tekken 4, because they run on similar hardware, the PS2) which can be a whole lot more expensive.

 

Err... To make it short. Making games on old hardware is cheaper. Especially since most arcade games run on cartridge format (Or something like it) instead of cheaper but less reliable formats like CD or DVD.

[Carnicero]

Kawaks, Nebula, etc. only emulate certain games because they choose to. That's why sites like Zophar keep a program like Kawaks separate from MAME. MAME just has more hardware emulation while Kawaks or Nebula only bother with specific arcade hardware.

 

As far as games coming out on old hardware, SNK's reason is because it's cheap. It's cheaper to ship out a lot of cabinets with older hardware than to move to new hardware. That's why future titles are looking to come out on Atomiswave, because SNK made a deal with Sammy, and Sammy wants to be stronger in the arcade market. NeoGeo is pretty much dead. Naomi, Atomiswave, CPS-3, etc. are not emulated. So KOF2003 is probably one of the last games you'll see emulated within a short span of the arcade machine being released...at least until CPS-3 and Naomi encryption is broken. On the other side of the fence, Capcom switched to Naomi because CPS-3 turned out to be a dud. SNK has lucked out milking old hardware for so long while Capcom couldn't do anything special with cutting edge hardware. Naomi is pretty much the safest hardware to develop for. It's not emulated, it's getting old enough to be pretty cheap to implement, and so many games have come out for it that quality is good. Sorta like how the first PS2 games sucked until developers got a hang of how to develop for the hardware.

 

At least that's how I understand it, and I'm surely no expert. Maybe someone here knows a bit more, because I've only become interested in arcade hardware in the past few years. In fact, emulation was my first exposure to NeoGeo games, being that my town's arcades never carried any SNK titles while I was growing up.

 

EDIT: Strider beat me to it! I type too slow.

Edited January 22, 2004 by Carnicero

[maninderb]

Capcom is 1000x lazier than SNK. Look at how many SNK characters got real makeovers. Kyo is on his third drastic makeover, Terry Bogard's Garou outfit is intact for KOF2003, etc. How many Street Fighter characters got a makeover? Chun Li and....well, I guess that's it. Demitri from Darkstalkers got a makeover (see my avatar) and guess what? It wasn't Capcom to do it! Morrigan is still sporting her original extremely dated sprites to this very day. Maybe SNK will again take the initiative and do what Capcom fails to with every release.

 

Look at how many times Terry Bogard got upgraded from Fatal Fury 1 to KOF2003. Compare that to any single Capcom character. Megaman's sprites get more attention than any fighting game character.

 

As far as the SNK characters not being redrawn in SVC, that's the whole point. Capcom vs SNK was put out by Capcom, which is why Capcom characters were only given minor graphical touches while all the SNK characters resemble the Capcom style. Look at Terry or Kyo and all will be clear. The Capcom characters in CVS had more pallette changes than redraws.

 

You don't need to worry about the game hardware. The next game is on Atomiswave. Maybe it'll look silky smooth like Guilty Gear X. The Guilty Gear visual style with SNK play mechanics would be the #1 fighting game. As long as the music doesn't resemble any of the Jazzpanese music from Capcom cames or has the annoying announcer guy yacking throughout the menus.

 

I like these Capcom and SNK debates though. Other people chime in please.

You mentioned that Capcom don't update their characters. That's totally wrong. I was mentioning game engines, not makeovers. If you give Ryu a makeover, will he look like Ryu? You see, Capcom characters are original but SNK tries hard to make their characters original. So no need to blame Capcom. Even if the characters haven't had a makeover, before, they have changed the graphics like the CVS series, the SF3 series, more than that, I also enjoy playing the EX series. So Capcom does update their characters, but their characters are much more original.

[random guy]

Hey, thanks for answering. And I understand the technical limitations emulators have to play with, hence why newer systems don't get emulated yet. But SVC Chaos...maybe I just wasn't running it properly, but graphically it really didn't look that much better than say Street Fighter Alpha. I suppose that is why you can emulate that and not, say, SFIII but I find it hard to believe that game makers continue to make games for the Neo Geo, if SVC is the pinnacle of graphics you can get for it, if there IS better technology out there. Maybe the golden years of arcade gaming are well behind us now...

 

 

EDIT: that second post was posted b4 I finished posting this one. That makes more sense - I really don't see CPS-2s and Neo Geo games being made much longer. IT also strikes me that this Naomi thing could be hard to emulate, because it strikes me that all arcade emulators will be harder to write than console emulators, as you are 100x more likely to own a console that you are trying to emulate than an arcade machine. I didn't realise that Nebula and Kawaks were not hardware-based emulators or whatever so they do not just act like a neo geo machine. I suppose that makes more sense considering their layout compared to the console emulators. But why does MAME have the same layout (eg a list of games, which you either have or do not) if it emulates Neo Geo hardware and the others don't - shouldn't you then be able to play a rom called anything and it would act just like the system and read it?

 

Thanks for clearing some problems up guys, but I'm still a little confused.

Edited January 22, 2004 by random guy

[webcarrot]

Btw, just thought I'd say. Garou was the pinnacle of graphics, not SVC.

[Agozer]

Btw, just thought I'd say. Garou was the pinnacle of graphics, not SVC.

Very true.

[KaliKOt]

Hey ryu and ken HAD slight makeovers. SF1 - Ryu's hair was red? and he wore slippers! sfalpha series (storywise before sf2) - new graphics and ken had long hair sf2 series - RED headband (from ken's ponytail) and they also refined him a little in the super games sf3 - new graphics of course cvs - new graphics.

btw: In svc, Not even 1 snk character got new graphics except for athena. and Takuma's mask DOESN'T count.

capcom was lazy for not doing all the other capcom characters in the cvs series.

and generally, the sfalpha look looks better than the kof look, but it is debatable for new kof characters

[maninderb]

I think SNK has a slight lead on Capcom.

 

Take the two most popular characters, Ryu and Terry as an example.

 

Ryu got a new look from SF1 to SF2 incarnations, another in SFA/Marvel, and the final one in SVC (done by SNK).

 

Terry Bogard changed in FF1, FF2, the Real Bout games, early KOF, late half KOF, Garou/KOF2003. An in CVS (by Capcom).  A lot of the Capcom characters in SVC were redrawn for the first time in literally a decade by SNK, not Capcom. But again, Capcom did their fair share of SNK character redraws in CVS. Both CVS and SVCs' redraws should be considered a non-issue, since the character HAD to be redrawn or the game would have looked more awkward than the Marvel series.

 

Most Capcom changes were color edits. Terry, and others from SNK, had numerous color changes as well throughout the course of KOF. Terry's pants, for example, have different shades of blue, as does Ryu's entire default color outfit in the SF2 series. In the end, the majority of SNK characters have more redraws while Capcom tends to stick with color alterations (especially in the SF2 series).

 

Of course, this is excluding CVS and SVC. I don't generally credit those games in graphics arguments because the sprites had to be redrawn for consistency sake. But if you wish to include them, then it results in a bit of a tie, since Capcom was forced to redraw more characters in CVS than SNK had to with SVC.

 

I guess my opinion could be countered just by total makeovers alone. SNK had quite a few, with Kyo a couple times, Terry once, etc. Capcom had Chun Li recieve a needless (but appreciated makeover), but did do quite a few makeovers bringing Final Fight and SF1 characters into the rosters. But SNK did their fair share with Athena, Ikari Warriors (OK, bad example), Art of Fighting, Fatal Fury, Samurai Showdown, etc.

Bullcrap! If you want to mention all the old fatal fury games, well, Ryu too has been updated many many times. The old SF1,SF2,SFA series, he was changed in mvc too, the CVS series, the SF3 series, and the EX series. Capcom doesn't think makovers are important cuz their characters are totally original, like, " the karate guy" (Ryu), "the arm stretching guy" (Dhalsim),

"the guy with the chain" (Akuma), "the chick" (Chun li). It proves that the Capcom characters are a lot more original than SNK characters. In fact, SNK copied Ryu and Ken and made Ryo Sakazaki, so to diss Robert Garcia, Capcom made Dan.

[maninderb]

I have to agree that capcom is lazier.

 

At least SNK is still releasing new fighters... even if they do reuse stuff.

That's not true. If you have 30 characters, doesn't mean its the best fighting game. The Kof series get so repetitive and boring. "Oh crap! 3 new characters, I gotta play it now!" wtf? SNK has never tried to redraw the sprites for the characters. If they did that, I might consider giving them props for the that.

[random guy]

Capcom doesn't think makovers are important cuz their characters are totally original, like, " the karate guy" (Ryu), "the arm stretching guy" (Dhalsim),

"the guy with the chain" (Akuma), "the chick" (Chun li).

Hey, that's not true... in certain Capcom games Dhalsim is BLUE! You don't think thats a full enough makover?