RPGs; Eastern vs. Western

[Daeval]

Thinking about this thread, I had something of a revalation. I'm not saying it's the gospel truth, but it makes sense to me. Feel free to respond with your thoughts. This one's going to be a doozy, so bear with me. (EDIT: It was a doozy... I trimmed it so that maybe someone would actually READ it.. hehe)

 

First off, I'm going to leave Tactical RPGs (Like Final Fantasy Tactics or Fallout Tactics), Action RPGs (like Diablo or Secret of Mana), MMORPGs (like Everquest or World of Warcraft), and freaking farm management sims (<3) the hell out of this. They just complicate things uneccessarily. Here I'm talking pure Eastern and Western RPGs. Final Fantasy vs. Fallout. Suikoden vs. Morrowind. Etc.

 

Typically, Eastern RPGs offer a greater variety of combat options, while Western RPGs offer a greater variety of non-combat options.

 

Multiple player-controlled characters, tons of items, and outlandish unique abilities are all standards of Eastern RPGs, but outside of combat you're basically down to healing and linear dialog. Western RPGs have the monopoly on exploratory skills like lockpicking or tech skills, stat-based communication options, etc, but combat options are usually limited to stronger or faster attacks with a given weapon style. Magic can complicate combat in a Western RPG, but it's usually limited to one or two characters in a group. It can also come at the cost of non-combat options, as a good caster is not usually a good thief, etc.

 

This has a direct effect on storytelling style (NOT QUALITY) as well.

 

In terms of storytelling, this means the Eastern RPG is usually very linear and the player is frequently lead from one combat situation to the next. On the one hand, this means the player doesn't have as much freedom, and may not feel as immersed in the setting. On the other hand, the writers don't have to worry about the player foiling an epic tale before they're supposed to.

 

The story in a Western RPG is typically told in a more subtle manner. The player is plopped down in the middle of some setting, and encounters the main storyline through quests, while exploration and use of skills reveals the details. This means the player may skip over much of the plot if he doesn't explore, but it can really make the world seem alive if the player pokes around a bit.

 

I have no idea what my point was. I guess, it's to say that they both have their advantages and their disadvantages, and that they're pretty even in the long run. It comes down to a matter of taste, of how you play and what you look for. Neither is inferior in system or storytelling, they are merely different. Both of them make the player a part of an epic tale, but they focus on different aspects of the journey.

 

 

 

And now for something completely different...

 

White Wolf uses the *Open-source* d20 system no?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but also a resounding NO.

 

They do release "secondary" products under the D20 system, including their Sword and Sorcery line for D&D, and the revamped Ravenloft setting. Yes, White Wolf was given official rights to Ravenloft. I guess they figured that if anyone had gothic horror down, it was WW. Probably a fair assumption.

 

However, the core White Wolf products come in two flavors, neither of which is D20 based. The first are the World of Darkness games, including Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage, among others. These use the newly revamped World of Darkness core system. The other major White Wolf franchise is Exalted, which also has its own core system. Both WoD and Exalted are D10 based, heavily story-focused, and look almost identical on the character sheets, but are functionally slightly different. Exalted is more big-fantasy-action oriented while WoD is a little more realistic and nitty gritty.

 

The Exalted system is, in my opinion, the only recent pen and paper system that is equal to, or possibly better than the much-lauded D20 D&D system. It has a variety of character options that is at least equivalent, but involves much less number crunching or table searching. It also puts players on a slightly higher power level, checking their egos with story-based consequences rather than pathetically low probabilities. Finally, it encourages players to take risks, as long as they're interesting. The setting is pretty awesome too. However, because of it's focus on dynamic storytelling, it probably wouldn't survive a transition to video games.

Edited February 24, 2005 by Daeval

[Skythe]

I've said it once and I'll say it again. Story doesn't make a game...it's gameplay. Story is just an element that entices the player. I'd like a game to have a good story but the one thing I look for most is gameplay.

 

Westside is all about gameplay while Eastside is story.

[Agozer]

Give me tentacle hentai plz

 

 

Oh and Skythe does have a point and I agree to what he said.

[NeoMaster]

O....K.... tell me that after you've played Morrowind with two different characters build differently. I've beaten Morrowind with at least 3 totally different characters. and had a different experiance each time.

As my post was saying. I was referring to RPG's where you designate skills points and attribute points and then have to redo your characters because you have uber placed proper skills making you feeble in PvP.

 

Is that Morrowind 3 that you've beaten? Maybe beating that long ass game 3 times is sure as hell proof that you've got nothing better to do. Funny how my comments work on multiple levels.

 

UH OH! everyone back up he's using the race card! I don't like hentai or tentacle porn, I must be a RACiST!

Maybe your lack of knowledge leads you to misthink that racist can only be used in literal terms as per it's definition. I was using it figurativly on how some people can prejudge games and define a culture of video games from only a few experiences. And from hearing about how much time you have with morrowind, I wouldn't be suprised if you were a closet hentai lover. Extra tenticles for you?

WTF? most western RPG's I know of are single player campaigns.

I don't consider MMO to be RPG's, I consider them IRC with graphics.

Everquest/Diablo/WoW/Lineage/Baldur's Gate/Dungeon Siege, maybe some of those mentioned aren't true Mass Multiplayer but have strong emphasis on co-operative play to increase the enjoyment. Which leads to pity "my character is stronger than your character".

[OverlordMondo]

Prepare yourselves mortals, I am about to define roleplaying. Get ready for this one.

 

In a roleplaying game, you play the role of a different person.

 

This simple line of text seems to confuse many people, so let me clarify which games are roleplaying games, and which aren't.

 

DnD, the original roleplaying game, involved making a character from scractch, interacting with fellow humans, and creating the story from an equal amount of scratch. Everything your character did, you made it do. This makes the orginal DnD the template for all true RPGs to come.

 

In Super Mario Brothers (where you definitely play as someone other then yourself), you control mario's body until a cutscene (not many in Mario, but bear with me), at which point Mario takes over and controls himself again to further the plot. This means that this is NOT a roleplaying game. As you are not playing his role, but merely moving him forward as he plays it himself.

 

In Final Fantasy, you play as several other people until a cutscene, at which point the game takes over and controls itself again to further the plot. This means that Final Fantasy is NOT a roleplaying game.

 

In Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines, you control your character until you reach another sentient character, at which point you interact with him/her via a menu of diverse choices. Since you retain control of your character during all conversations (also meaning that this game isn't the best example, wink wink), this IS a roleplaying game.

 

In Diablo II, you hack through streams of monsters as you move through large dungeons to reach a boss with some phat loot. That means that this is NO WHERE NEAR a roleplaying game.

 

The reason they're all viewed as RPGs is because they all use statistics (except Mario :\). But seeing as you're no longer playing a role in Final Fantasy or Diablo, they're no longer RPGs.

 

Hope this cleared up some confusion.

Edited February 24, 2005 by LordKanti

[Daeval]

I've said it once and I'll say it again. Story doesn't make a game...it's gameplay. Story is just an element that entices the player. I'd like a game to have a good story but the one thing I look for most is gameplay.

 

Westside is all about gameplay while Eastside is story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with your first statement, but not with your second. Both "sides" can be good at story AND gameplay. They just have different goals as far as gameplay goes. Eastern RPGs offer linear gameplay that focuses heavily on combat abilities and strategies. Western RPGs offer non-linear gameplay that gives you far more options, but focuses less on any given type of challenge.

 

If you prefer one type of gameplay over the other, you're going to like that kind of RPG, but that doesn't make the other inherently worse in an objective sense. That said, I will be the first to admit that there are more examples of bad Eastern RPGs than there are bad Western RPGs. They are a much more saturated genre and, with such a focus on combat, they only have one real chance to make or break it.

 

I think this theory of stylistic differentiation has merit. If anyone would like to test it, let's hear it.

[NeoMaster]

In Final Fantasy, you play as several other people until a cutscene, at which point the game takes over and controls itself again to further the plot.  This means that Final Fantasy is NOT a roleplaying game.

LOL, that's the smartest thing I've heard lately...

[Daeval]

As my post was saying. I was referring to RPG's where you designate skills points and attribute points and then have to redo your characters because you have uber placed proper skills making you feeble in PvP.

Which, as garageink pointed out, doesn't happen in a decent Western RPG. If you're aiming for the most powerful character you can make, just check a FAQ and make him. If you're playing the game, the advantage of a good Western RPG is that you can make whatever character you want and still beat it with a little skill and luck. Your second paragraph in this response is assinine and will be ignored.

 

Maybe your lack of knowledge leads you to misthink that racist can only be used in literal terms as per it's definition. I was using it figurativly on how some people can prejudge games and define a culture of video games from only a few experiences.

Maybe something has lead you to think that "racism" is a synonym for "prejudice," "discrimination," or "bias." "Racism" relates directly to "race" as the term is applied to humans. There are better words for what you're trying to say, and misusing "racism" in this situation makes it seem like you're just trying to sound offensive. Oh wait, you ended this one with another baseless and snide remark, perhaps you are...

 

Everquest/Diablo/WoW/Lineage/Baldur's Gate/Dungeon Siege, maybe some of those mentioned aren't true Mass Multiplayer but have strong emphasis on co-operative play to increase the enjoyment. Which leads to pity "my character is stronger than your character".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nearly this entire thread has been about single-player RPGs, for which the Western part of the genre has plenty of noteable entries. MMORPGs like Everquest and dungeon romps like Diablo are not the games garageink is backing in this case. It's clear that you are not familiar with Western RPGs, or that you are terribly biased against them. Furthermore, Lineage is Korean.

 

 

If you're going to back your favorite games, that's fine, but don't pepper your posts with baseless insults towards other users, especially if you don't know what you're talking about in the first place.

Edited February 24, 2005 by Daeval

[NeoMaster]

Ahahahah, wow, looks like the hero defender comes out of his closet just in time to save the day. Seriously, if you wanted to act like a big shot and come in here to contest what I've said, maybe you should've done it earlier and with better results. Jumping in at that the end of the battle to give your two cents is worthless really.

 

Which, as garageink pointed out, doesn't happen in a decent Western RPG. If you're aiming for the most powerful character you can make, just check a FAQ and make him. If you're playing the game, the advantage of a good Western RPG is that you can make whatever character you want and still beat it with a little skill and luck. Your second paragraph in this response is assinine and will be ignored.

 

What's your definition of a decent western rpg? Your an "assinine" for not thinking about what example your using and for arguing that games where you designate points are bad examples of great Western RPG...what western game that is good doesn't have options to designate points? What game allows you to put an idiotic skill anywhere and be able to have a powerful character? Why use a FAQ to create an uber character when the whole point of the Western RPG is to have a customizable one...NOT making someone else's character.

Maybe something has lead you to think that "racism" is a synonym for "prejudice," "discrimination," or "bias." "Racism" relates directly to "race" as the term is applied to humans. There are better words for what you're trying to say, and misusing "racism" in this situation makes it seem like you're just trying to sound offensive. Oh wait, you ended this one with another baseless and snide remark, perhaps you are...

Racism and prejudice stem from the same account. Both basing arguments on beliefs rather than fact. Here's a definition for you.

-Racism-

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

 

Did you read that nice and clear? We are talking about western vs eastern remember? Believing that Western are created more superior to Eastern is racist in my books fool.

 

Nearly this entire thread has been about single-player RPGs, for which the Western part of the genre has plenty of noteable entries. MMORPGs like Everquest and dungeon romps like Diablo are not the games garageink is backing in this case. It's clear that you are not familiar with Western RPGs, or that you are terribly biased against them. Furthermore, Lineage is Korean.

 

 

If you're going to back your favorite games, that's fine, but don't pepper your posts with baseless insults towards other users, especially if you don't know what you're talking about in the first place.

 

Nearly the entire thread? What have you been reading moron? The majority of the pages are comments like "Western", "Oh Eastern", Final Fantasy discussion and Hot and Cold fool. Maybe you should read them sometime. The only mentions are Morrowind and Fallout, which in your case is the basic essence of Western games. Since we are in the present time I felt I had to consider the latest entries of Western games that are most popular among the masses and not just to you. The market is full of Diablo clones and don't give me this shi t about me not knowing about western rpg's.

 

Once again your the one who just wants a little attention by acting like a big shot. But basically, your just getting shot down. Save your useless defences in maybe the spam topic, because your posts are jibberish.

[Wizard]

I've said it once and I'll say it again. Story doesn't make a game...it's gameplay. Story is just an element that entices the player. I'd like a game to have a good story but the one thing I look for most is gameplay.

 

Westside is all about gameplay while Eastside is story.

I agree, now it feels like it anyways.

What's your definition of a decent western rpg? Your an "assinine" for not thinking about what example your using and for arguing that games where you designate points are bad examples of great Western RPG...what western game that is good doesn't have options to designate points? What game allows you to put an idiotic skill anywhere and be able to have a powerful character? Why use a FAQ to create an uber character when the whole point of the Western RPG is to have a customizable one...NOT making someone else's character.

You actually fail to notice the main stand point in Western RPGs. Just because theres this small little FAQ to make a uber character doesn't mean you have to use it. It's just their way of achiving set goal.

Racism and prejudice stem from the same account. Both basing arguments on beliefs rather than fact. Here's a definition for you.

-Racism-

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

 

Did you read that nice and clear? We are talking about western vs eastern remember? Believing that Western are created more superior to Eastern is racist in my books fool.

I'll put this in big letters for everyone. It's what you think.

Nearly the entire thread? What have you been reading moron? The majority of the pages are comments like "Western", "Oh Eastern", Final Fantasy discussion and Hot and Cold fool. Maybe you should read them sometime. The only mentions are Morrowind and Fallout, which in your case is the basic essence of Western games. Since we are in the present time I felt I had to consider the latest entries of Western games that are most popular among the masses and not just to you. The market is full of Diablo clones and don't give me this shi t about me not knowing about western rpg's.

 

Once again your the one who just wants a little attention by acting like a big shot. But basically, your just getting shot down. Save your useless defences in maybe the spam topic, because your posts are jibberish.

Like wise with this.

 

Just because most of us use 2 games all the time, is just because we find them to be supiror to others that have come out on the market. Yes, we use them all the time, yes we use them to death, but if you want to experience something first hand and right away, start off with those games. Their are plenty of other games under this small section that, if you want too, you can search for.

 

Heck, what a good selection, I'll give you one.

Fallout

System Shock II

Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic I/II

The Longest Journey

Baldur's Gate I/II

Sainitairum

Syberia

Myst (I'm sure some people will agree Myst fits here, since it's like, everywhere)

 

Finally.

Once again your the one who just wants a little attention by acting like a big shot. But basically, your just getting shot down. Save your useless defences in maybe the spam topic, because your posts are jibberish.

I'm the big shot because i'm the Troll. And just because, as a troll, your a douche bag.

[NeoMaster]

Fallout

System Shock II

Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic I/II

The Longest Journey

Baldur's Gate I/II

Sainitairum

Syberia

Myst

Ah yeah...not the best selection. I don't know what you were trying to go with there.

 

Isn't system shock a fps with rpg elements? Why didn't you add Deus Ex while you are at it.

I'm the big shot because i'm the Troll. And just because, as a troll, your a douche bag.

Your troll abilities seem too forced...a troll should be more natural. Nice John Stewart lingo.

[Wizard]

Fallout

System Shock II

Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic I/II

The Longest Journey

Baldur's Gate I/II

Sainitairum

Syberia

Myst

Ah yeah...not the best selection. I don't know what you were trying to go with there.

 

Isn't system shock a fps with rpg elements? Why didn't you add Deus Ex while you are at it.

I'm the big shot because i'm the Troll. And just because, as a troll, your a douche bag.

Your troll abilities seem too forced...a troll should be more natural. Nice John Stewart lingo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's MY list after all. It's open source, feel free to add more. I'm just adding what I can do from the top of my head.

 

For properly being a troll, one simply must say anything at anyone.

 

System Shock is the define term of a perfect hybrid of FPS and RPG. Kinda like that crappy PS2 game thats not EQ.

[Inky]

Your an "assinine"

heheh you totally used that word wrong.

here's todays vocabulary lesson:

you are an ASS

your posts are assinine.

now as for the racism thing. you implied that if we didn't embrace eastern RPG's we must be racists. even though we all own eastern consoles, and tv's. most everyone in this thread is a diehard eastern fighting game fan. my point was that there are lots of parts of asian culture I find useless and stupid (hentai, used underwear vending machines, idiots dieing from malnutrition cuz they are too busy playing ragnarok, ect.) Do I hate eastern races and culture because of this? no. and if we are going to think this way then japan is a nation a racists because they haven't embraced the xbox

 

and if you haven't noticed Morrowind has been out for years. I've beat it so many times because I've had it since it's release and I like it, it's hardly all I do. between my art, my guitar, work, my side work as a tattoo artist, my wife and kids, friends, and all my other games, you'd wonder how I have time to eat and sleep much less play a game for hours at a time.

I don't consider diablo and it's clones or harvest moon rpgs. so when ever you bring those up my eyes just gloss over and you lose crediblity points with me

and finally, there are some eastern rpgs I like but I grew up with real pen and paper shadowrun and D&D.

Edited February 24, 2005 by garageink

[Wizard]

Do I hate eastern races and culture because of this? no. and if we are going to think this way then japan is a nation a racists because they haven't embraced the xbox

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They haven't accepted BLACK people!

 

 

I'm just making cheap shots now.

[Daeval]

What's your definition of a decent western rpg? Your an "assinine" for not thinking about what example your using and for arguing that games where you designate points are bad examples of great Western RPG...what western game that is good doesn't have options to designate points? What game allows you to put an idiotic skill anywhere and be able to have a powerful character?

My point was that in a good Western RPG, such as Fallout, Morrowind, or Planescape: Torment, you can "designate points" any way you please and not end up with a useless character. Having a min/maxed "powerful" character is not necessary to have fun with the game, nor is it the goal of the game.

 

Did you read that nice and clear? We are talking about western vs eastern remember? Believing that Western are created more superior to Eastern is racist in my books fool.

If you like Mazdas more than Fords, it is not a sign of "racism." The word carries its own specific meaning and a connotation that isn't applicable here. But that isn't the point..

 

Nearly the entire thread? What have you been reading moron? The majority of the pages are comments like "Western", "Oh Eastern", Final Fantasy discussion and Hot and Cold fool. Maybe you should read them sometime. The only mentions are Morrowind and Fallout, which in your case is the basic essence of Western games. Since we are in the present time I felt I had to consider the latest entries of Western games that are most popular among the masses and not just to you. The market is full of Diablo clones and don't give me this shi t about me not knowing about western rpg's.

Nearly the entire thread in the context of the discussion you entered when you started your mud-slinging. Your argument is a straw man, and I'm not going to repeat my correction of it.

 

Once again your the one who just wants a little attention by acting like a big shot. But basically, your just getting shot down. Save your useless defences in maybe the spam topic, because your posts are jibberish.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ad Hominem. Read the forum rules before you get yourself warned.