RIP Yassar Arafat

[random guy]

A lot of people are, indeed, celebrating his death.  Check this forum out...

 

http://www.serebiiforums.com/newforums/sho...ead.php?t=41871

 

Most of this forum is strongly christian.  I participate in debates there, but it's me against a million on most issues.

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Actually , Yasser Arafat did all he could to stop the terrorist atacks. Sure, he was originally a member of the PLO so technically a terrorist, by that standard Ariel Sharon was a terrorist. Arafat was just scapegoated by Bush because Bush didn't want the roadmap to peace, or at least he wanted peace only in a way that would benefit Israel as much as possible, so he needed an excuse not to negotiate with Palestine. Crunk, crunk, crunk goes the propaganda division, and suddenly Arafat is the worst terrorist in the world next to bin Laden. And 97% of Americans fell for it, surprise surprise.

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Well, it's not exactly something to argue over, but... Ariel Sharon wasn't a 'terrorist', because his massacres were *state sponsored*, which historically is usually much much worse. It's surprising that he's actually on the right side in the settlement-withdrawal issue... whether that's a ploy or whether he's somehow miraculously reformed remains to be seen, but since I personally can't vote his clout away, I'll at least accept that he's not herding Palestinian refugees into hired fanatic anti-Muslim militias anymore. Anyway, if he's looking for redemption he's got a few lifetimes to go... but as long as he doesn't give it up, I'm not getting in his way.

 

Second, I don't really care whether someone's called "terrorist" or not. It's not like a person's automatically a saint if no-one hangs that particular label on them. A person can only be judged by what they do and what they fail to do, not what people call them. Arafat's been around long before anyone knew Dubya, and he's been consistently militant - I would say "self-destructively so", except the only people he's been destroying are the Palestinians and a much smaller number of no less innocent Israeli civilians. This isn't a view I've picked up in the last 4 years, or off TV. I've been following this issue closely for 15 years, and my position on Arafat is unchanged. Arafat has *greatly* contributed to the negative opinion of Palestinians globally, and has basically done *nothing* to lead to peace - in fact quite the contrary. He's turned down chance after chance to avoid retributions, refugee camp raids, etc. He's a dumb, stubborn git. He thought it was fun to play chicken with Israel to the point he got his office building surrounded by tanks and his power cut out, while people were having heart-attacks inside, and guess what? He paints himself as the Hero Who Didn't Back Down. He's led his people to slaughter to keep that title. He's kept them living in a police state by forcefully "hogging the limelight" of Palestinian politics, all too happy to be Israel's poster-child for why it's Ok to bomb and bulldoze a poor and broken people. Arafat is the worst thing that could have happened to the Palestinians, and I say this having out and out wept for them many *many* times. Screw what the Bush administration says, I'm only thinking about all the people who are dead who shouldn't be. This guy smiled through it all.

 

I don't celebrate people's deaths, hell, I don't even feel a wry superiority for surviving past them. I feel sad when someone dies, I'm a softie - but I sure as hell feel a lot sadder for all the people whose deaths this "militant media darling" could have prevented by not intentionally sabotaging every negotiative effort that's taken place over the years.

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Well, I've got a very different opinion of Arafat, that he was a leader who did his best to keep the Palestinians from turning terrorist, while trying to get to a decent resolution in the negotiations. See the thing is, even if Arafat accepted some of the peace plans even though that would mean conceding to the Palestinians to a great deal, it's not as if he'd have been able to convince his people to go along with the deal. There'd still be fighting and terrorist attacks, the difference would have been Arafat would cease to have even the pretense of conrol over the Palestinian people.

 

Oh and kyujenkiss, it's not Bush's fault that Israel and Palestine are at odds, but it IS his fault that the roadmap to peace isn't currently being put in action. You see, he didn't think of the roadmap, it was Britain and two other countries. But he did jump on board for the sole reason of stopping the plan from being put in action - he joined the crew, rhen promptly refused to negotiate with Palestine because he wouldn't negotiate with Arafat, therefore stalling the roadmap all together. And you'd have to be damn ignorant not to know THAT!

Edited November 11, 2004 by random guy

[Diso]

A lot of people are, indeed, celebrating his death.  Check this forum out...

 

http://www.serebiiforums.com/newforums/sho...ead.php?t=41871

 

Most of this forum is strongly christian.  I participate in debates there, but it's me against a million on most issues.

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Ironic how most of them have pokemon avatars no?

[someboddy]

[Bluestinger X]

i dont agree with the celebrating... but i do agree he wasnt a good leader. How many times did he come to america to talk peace(when clinton was here)? and then the next day his country would break it again. Israel gets suicide bombers from them daily. I know these things dont seem so important to you but... do u know how many Israel children have been killed or injurded by suicide bombers over the last 2 years? Then everyone gets mad at Israel for trying to do something about it. Atleast in Israel they have freedom of speech and rellgion..... unlinke all the muslim nations around it.

[OverlordMondo]

A lot of people are, indeed, celebrating his death.  Check this forum out...

 

http://www.serebiiforums.com/newforums/sho...ead.php?t=41871

 

Most of this forum is strongly christian.  I participate in debates there, but it's me against a million on most issues.

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Ironic how most of them have pokemon avatars no?

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It's a Pokemon themed site...

[random guy]

i dont agree with the celebrating... but i do agree he wasnt a good leader. How many times did he come to america to talk peace(when clinton was here)? and then the next day his country would break it again.  Israel gets suicide bombers from them daily. I know these things dont seem so important to you but... do u know how many Israel children have been killed or injurded by suicide bombers over the last 2 years? Then everyone gets mad at Israel for trying to do something about it. Atleast in Israel they have freedom of speech and rellgion..... unlinke all the muslim nations around it.

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Again, the Palestinian people are furious over the situation, the hate has been rising for generations and it periodically erupts in violence. So Arafat, short of tying up every Palestinian, could do little to stop the bloodshed. Also, the Israeli government/army have more than their share of blood on their hands, if we're going to start counting attrocities.

[Swithin]

Actually, IIRC about twice as many Palestinians die annually at the hands of the Israeli military (which has been armed mostly over the years by the US) than Israelis die at the hands of Palestinians. Both numbers are usually near 1-2 thousands per *year*.

 

That's why it's ridiculous to argue who's *worse*. Sure, it's much easier to blame the side who seems to have an official government policy of eradicating a people than the people who produce 1-2 hundred nuts a generation... hell, even I do. The truth is, however, that the Palestinians are also responsible for tens of thousands of deaths... in fact, two Palestinian organizations are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths, Israeli and Palestinian. My point is this: 1) as a Palestinian, it might be in your interest to use your authority as their de facto leader to curb these two groups death toll, even if you have to out and out oppose them, and 2) as a human being, you *cannot* have a policy of "well, since my group killed fewer than your group this year, we'll have to encourage them to do better in 2000." I have a hard time (believe it or not) making arguments to pop someone's bubble of positive-opinion of world leaders (I had huge problems with my ex-girlfriend over this), but the truth is Arafat has only contributed to fighting between Israelis and Palestinians, and was the leader of an organization that continued to murder innocents while he was in charge. There were *tons* of things Arafat could have done that would have led to peace, if not a sovereign Palestinian nation by now. He's been causing trouble ever since the 50s, when he countered massacre with massacre. That's what he does. He could've said "hey, let's let the Israelis be the monsters, then the world will support us," he could have whored public opinion, even *just* stepping aside would have saved thousands of lives... but he had to be a hard-liner. I'm sorry, but in my mind, no amount of personal pride or glory-hogging is worth *tens of thousands of lives*.

 

In a situation where you have a choice between preventing mass murders or playing the AK toting "freedom fighter", in this particular conflict where *thousands* die a year, failure to save lives makes you a bad man... a life led pro-actively promoting armed conflict makes you infinitely worse. It doesn't matter how sincere you look during your air-time, no-one has the right to knowingly trade so many lives for image.

[i l l m a t i c]

is he dead yet?

Edited November 11, 2004 by Xx1LLMAT1CxX

[Gryph]

is he dead yet?

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No, he was spotted doing some shoes shopping on Park Avenue with Paris Hilton and Liza Minelli.

[Agozer]

is he dead yet?

 

No, he was spotted doing some shoes shopping on Park Avenue with Paris Hilton and Liza Minelli.

And boy were those shoes fancy.

[i l l m a t i c]

did anyone catch leno acouple days ago? remember when he talked about arafat being treated like that one dude on weekend at bernie's??

[OverlordMondo]

I'll just throw in the fact that I support RandomGuy's statements. Supporters might make the opinion seem more valid. My support might not, it depends what you think of me, but most support does.

[Swithin]

Well, since I and RandomGuy are the only ones really discussing this with any heat, I guess I'm the 'opposition' here. Just to make it clear, I'm not trying to say anyone's take on world affairs is "invalid" in my eyes, or unsupported: I'm just a hardass on anyone who takes the responsibility over deciding the fates of other people's lives. When you step up to a position where you can effectively decide who lives and who dies, the bar gets raised a whole lot in my eyes; if you're going to be a political leader of major global importance, saving people's lives better be high on your list, or... I don't like you. Simple as that. I don't think Arafat ever had "saving lives" on his list of things to do, and it would have been so simple... so I simply don't like or respect him. He might have been a great guy, a great car salesman, even a great journalist or author, someone to "speak up" for the Palestinians. The guy knew how to get press, that's for sure. Once he took peoples lives in his hands, and he clenched his fists for his own reasons, that's when he crossed the line in my eyes. He is knowingly the cause of the death of innocents, he was unrepentant to his deathbed, and for me that itself is all I need to know about him, beyond circumstances, ethnicity, whatever. I'm not saying his cause is invalid, I'm a *supporter* of his cause, it's just that everything he *did* led to this continual "murder for murder", when the Palestinians and Israelis could have had peace by now. If he couldn't have done the job right, he shouldn't have been a leader at all...

[KyokugenKiss]

i just dont give a shiet

[OverlordMondo]

Truthfully, he's dead and the election is over, I don't know why people continue to talk about them. Whatever he did, he can't do it now. And the president isn't going to change for four years. Or will it...?