The Paul (From Tekken) Judo/Not Judo Thing

[Daeval]

Ok, I moved this here to keep from flying off topic any further in the previous thread. Warning, this'll be a doozy. I'll start by examining SNKs last conribution:

 

The whole argument, as you obviously forgot ages ago, was that

1. I said Paul was supposed to be Judo based (based on me forming that opinion in 94, knowing what the designer's were aiming for, whether you feel they achieved it or not).

 

2. You said he wasn't supposed to be.

Correction: I said that, even though he WAS supposed to be, he sure didn't look like it. Take a look at my original post:

I've never seen a judoka do ANY of that stuff.  He might have a judo-based throw or two, but the vast majority of his moves look more like Akira from Virtua Fighters "Eight-Way Punch" or "Bear and Tiger" style.  It might be what the manual says, but it's lying to you. 

There I clearly state that I know that he is officially supposed to be based on Judo (it's even in the manual). What I'm arguing is that he does not represent what he is "supposed to" represent. He does not look like he is doing Judo. Let's move on...

 

3. I later found proof (proof that I didn't think existed until earlier today) that I was right, he DID use a Judo based style. You then changed your argument to "I don't care what Namco say he is, he doesn't look like it" in a stupid attempt to continue something that was over.

Again, take a look at the quote above. You found "proof" of something that I had confirmed in my original post. My argument was never changed, I merely pointed out that you were arguing something that I already agreed on, and were missing the point of my original argument. My point, as is clear from my original post quoted above, was that he does not look like he is doing Judo, despite that official sources say he is. Let's continue...

 

 

And on the "Why isn't Ryu judo", "why isn't bloody Zangief judo"? debacle, you are being absurd  - Ryu's actions wouldn't make anyone think he was supposed to be a judo character. (Just because he uses two throws that could be mis-interpreted as being "judo style") Paul used far more than that, numerous throws and other subtelties that to my mind added up to = Namco attempting judo badly, I didn't think Michelle was supposed to be wrestling based because she had a german suplex for one of her throws....

I was being absurd to make a point. You were saying that Paul looked to you like he was doing Judo. To me, he doesn't look like he's doing Judo any more than Ryu does. The two throws Ryu does (Morote-Seoinage and Tomoe-Nage) ARE throws used in Judo. There's no misinterpretation to be had. Check these out:

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/...oteseoinage.htm

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/tomoenag.gif

 

Those are Ryu's throws.

 

Judo throws are borrowed for TONS of characters in fighting games, and that's no big deal. Sarah and Kage from VF, for example, both use several Judo techniques. What I was responding to are your comments like this:

Actually, Ever since Tekken 1 came out in the arcades I knew Namco were going for a judo style character. Although it was appallingly done, I saw that he was 'supposed' to be judo.

My unstated question was "What made you think he was supposed to be Judo (assuming you didn't check the official info on him) way back with Tekken 1?" I took a look at his movelist to try and figure it out myself:

 

Paul:    Moves:

-----

          Forward Jump Kick - F, F + LK + RK

          Double Jump Kick - F, F + LK, RK

          Double Forward Jump Kick/Kick - F, F + LK, RK, RK

          Double Forward Jump Kick/Low Kick - F, F + LK, RK, D + RK

          Double Hop Kick - tap U or UB or UF + LK, RK

          2 Punches/High Kick - RP, LP, LK

          Flip Kick - F, F + RK

          Hammer Punch - tap D + LP

          Hammer Punch/Power Punch - tap D + LP, F + RP

          Ground Punch - tap DF + RP or tap DB + RP

          Sweep - tap D + RK

          Sweep/Elbow - tap D + RK, RP

          Elbow - hold DB, D, DF, F + LP

          Power Punch - HCF + RP (just moves forward w/o punching if not

                                  near enemy)

None of those look anything like Judo techniques, so it couldn't be them. The top 5 are flying kicks, very much like Akira's F, F+K, K from Virtua Fighter. Then we have a punch, punch, leaping kick combo, a silly looking flip kick, and a series of Forward-palm style punches and Akira-style elbows, with their accompanying lead-ins. His standard punches and kicks, as well as his stance, are nearly identical to everyone elses, and don't suggest a particular style. So we move on to his throws:

 

Throws:

          Arm Throw - LP + LK

          Leg-Push Throw - RP + RK

          Rollback Throw - B + LP + LK (have to HOLD

          Power Punch Throw - F, F + LP + RP

Ok, his Arm Throw is an Ippon Seoinage, and his Rollback Throw is a Tomoe-Nage. The Leg-Push Throw is a Flying Armbar, which COULD be considered a Judo manuever, we'll call it a half. The Power Punch is another Akira-style thrusting elbow/punch.

 

Ok, so he has 2 and a half Judo manuevers. That's only only one and a half up on Kazuya (who has a hip throw). And that's out of 18 total. The Flip Kick is just silly, and then the other 15 out of his 18 moves look like moves borrowed directly from Akira. So, to reiterate the core statement of my original post:

He might have a judo-based throw or two, but the vast majority of his moves look more like Akira from Virtua Fighters "Eight-Way Punch" or "Bear and Tiger" style.

 

And that's how I ended up with the Ryu analogy. As already shown, Ryu has 2 Judo throws. Paul has 2 and a half Judo throws, I'll even give you 3 for the benefit of the doubt. That's only 1 more, and out of a much larger moveset. It's clear that Paul (From Tekken 1, where you said you first saw the Judo influence) and Ryu use about the same number of Judo techniques. So, I bring you back to something you said:

Ryu's actions wouldn't make anyone think he was supposed to be a judo character. (Just because he uses two throws that could be mis-interpreted as being "judo style")

You could replace "Ryu" with "Paul" in that last sentence and you wouldn't have to change anything else, as has been presented in the examination of Paul's movelist. If you saw some other connection Paul had with Judo in Tekken 1, what was it?

 

 

 

Since, in the process of examining your last argument, I've basically presented mine, I leave you the floor.

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

All I'm gonna say at the moment (before I go to bed) is that half of your argument is aimed at Namco. If you don't like how they implement judo, moan to them about it.

 

I'll talk more about Pauls judo subtleties tomorrow morning when I wake up.

 

For now, I'm off to bed.

Edited September 22, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[Daeval]

All I'm gonna say at the moment (before I go to bed) is that half of your argument is aimed at Namco. If you don't like how they implement judo, moan to them about it.

Well, I wasn't really arguing with anybody with my initial post, just pointing out what I observed. I don't really care what Namco wants to call it, all I know is that it doesn't look like Judo to me.

 

However, you decided to take the opposing stance and in that you charged yourself, not Namco, with defending your position. I look forward to reading tommorow's post, and to keeping this civil as it has been so far (at least in this thread).

[Jjangthekid]

judo.??!? hahah.. judo is hand to hand..flipping people around technique... i dont think it has anything to do with paul from tekken..

[Fatal Rose]

Anyone who has a general knowledge of the martial arts knows that Paul fights nothing at all like a true Judo stylist.

[Jjangthekid]

Anyone who has a general knowledge of the martial arts knows that Paul fights nothing at all like a true Judo stylist.

you are so right fatal..way to go!

[Cominus]

You guyz are fawking idiotz! What if paul was a judo artist with a "karate" or some shyt influence? What then? It'z like van dam(movie star one). I didn't know what sytle he fought. At first I thought it was karate, then I thought it was kickboxing(the kickboxer) but it didn't seem right cuz hiz style wasn't disiplined enough to be muy thai and it was show-boaty enough to be an american kickboxing. So there you go!

 

 

FAWK Q!

[Fatal Rose]

You guyz are fawking idiotz!  What if paul was a judo artist with a "karate" or some shyt influence? What then? It'z like van dam(movie star one). I didn't know what sytle he fought. At first I thought it was karate, then I thought it was kickboxing(the kickboxer) but it didn't seem right cuz hiz style wasn't disiplined enough to be muy thai and it was show-boaty enough to be an american kickboxing. So there you go!

 

 

FAWK Q!

[Jjangthekid]

You guyz are fawking idiotz!  What if paul was a judo artist with a "karate" or some shyt influence? What then? It'z like van dam(movie star one). I didn't know what sytle he fought. At first I thought it was karate, then I thought it was kickboxing(the kickboxer) but it didn't seem right cuz hiz style wasn't disiplined enough to be muy thai and it was show-boaty enough to be an american kickboxing. So there you go!

 

 

FAWK Q!

rofl..why you gotta be so harsh??..

[Aoshi]

Aren't all the tekken character arts modifications of actual martial arts???

[Ryuken]

it's juat a game with 3d rendering people!!! damn u people are crazy but if ur talking about the comic or w/e then it'll be ok but not the game. just play and dis people

[Agozer]

it's juat a game with 3d rendering people!!! damn u people are crazy but if ur talking about the comic or w/e then it'll be ok but not the game. just play and dis people

I was just aabout to post the same thing.

[KyokugenKiss]

can admins close this topic out of its sheer lameness factor?

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

Aren't all the tekken character arts modifications of actual martial arts???

Yeah, and Paul's is based on judo. Just as Kings is based on wrestling and Brian is based on kickboxing. Both (until Tekken 4 at least) were crap representations of the actual style as they only had a few moves from their particular style and lots of other moves thrown in. Wolf is as good a representation of a wrestler as you can get in a fighting game, obviously he has a few out of place wrestling techniques to make sure he plays similar to the other fighters, but most of his moves could be seen in an actual wrestling match. King however, is a far less "realistic" take on the wrestling fighting style (with his twirling dropkicks, flying flaming, ax handle smash and head first dives etc). The arts in Tekken are incredibly stylised, so many of Paul's techniques look judo influenced but are stylised and enhanced which makes you unable to spot the similarities.

 

Comparing King with Wolf, proves that VF has the better take on fighting styles, but comparing Paul and Goh's judo styles highlights even more difference. But that's why they say Paul is only judo based (as he will have been that way initially but developed different techniques that took him further and further away from his starting concept) whereas King is just - Pro Wrestling.

 

BTW: Cominus is right (he was harsh, but you may have deserved it), Paul's style is most definitely 3 or more fighting styles mixed together, but his fighting style looks as if he learned judo, wanted to kick people's ass even more, and then compounded his ability by incorporating more powerful techniques from traditional karate and other styles. Hence "Judo-based Martial Arts".

I think the pinacle of Paul's judo was in Tekken 2 - when they added more judo style moves, and before they added the Akira style power attacks in 3 and 4.

In Tekken 2 it was very clear that he was using a base set of judo techniques(with less of the other styles mixed in at that point) with his takedown counters, his punch when opponents are down and his tackle (db LP + RP) to name a few.

 

Another reason why I thought Paul was judo was his look. His thick red gi (coloured the way lots of judo gi's are) with a logo on his back and the fact that he is an American/western competitor focusing on a style that is well known in the west. He isn't doing a martial art that would contradict his American roots, like some bizarre, unheard of art like Xinyi Liuhe Quan.

 

Also, bare in mind that this game (Tekken 1) was the first (almost) realistic fighting game where fighting styles could be part of the game (which was in an alpha phase of development with Virtua Fighter) and so I was trying to look for fighting styles in Namco's rival game. At this time, games never really tried to achieve proper fighting styles so I didn't have anything to compare this to and thought Paul's style was most like judo.

 

Even VF was appalling with fighting styles back then. Both VF1 and Tekken1 were almost like Mortal Kombat with how characters had the same basic moves but with 5 or 6 special attacks. These few specials were the only thing that set the characters apart (except for their appearance) and therefore the only way to judge the fighting style. Jacky was suppose to be a JKD fighter (and people all picked up on this, I know I did) and all he had (that were even slightly JKD based) was a double roundhouse, a knee (lots of characters also had this move), a thrusting kick and a special persue attack when the opponent was down. Even his throws seemed nothing like JKD and more like rough wrestling slams. Unless you feel that a flying backflip kick is JKD, Jacky was only very slightly more JKD than Paul was judo. Games in those days were all that bad at fighting styles.

 

Namco did just enough for my mind to realise they were aiming for Judo and not enough for you to realise it. It means I understood games and designers better than you ever will (I don't care how much you know about real fighting arts).

 

Bottom line is: In 1994 I thought Jacky and Sarah were JKD fighters, I thought King and Wolf were wrestlers, and I thought Paul was a Judo fighter. You disputed that he was even meant to be for ages (the reason you posted again and again and why the argument has gone on as long as it has, review your posts that comprise this argument in the early stages if you don't believe it)

Edited September 22, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

it's juat a game with 3d rendering people!!! damn u people are crazy but if ur talking about the comic or w/e then it'll be ok but not the game. just play and dis people

Why is talking about comics OK, but discussing games isn't? Just because you like comics more than games? Well I don't.