Need some answers :)

[Keith]

In the following quotes except the last one Snail's comments are the ones in bold.

 

He is making him look bad, not only is what they are "purportedly" doing illegal, but Snail is lying to him about the supposed work he's done.

 

Well, aren't you the pompus ass with the accusations?

I did my legal research.

I did my work.

Aside from alligations, what have you done?

Can we get a response the counter points to your legal homework that have been reported on your legal thread as well as EmuFanatics forums?

 

http://www.1emulation.com/forums/index.php...indpost&p=74921

 

http://www.emufanatics.com/forums/index.ph...findpost&p=9599

 

 

I've compared files, and Snail has not only packed the "Cassini" exe, but he's obfuscated it (Nobody does that unless they're trying to hide something)

 

No sh!t Sherlock.

 

at the very most some minor hex edits have been done

 

Well, its clearly obvious you are no programmer.

I'd like to see you accomplish what I've done with a hex editor.

 

 

and a TOTALLY useless ASM dump was generated.

 

 

It is only uselss if you're only a lame ass compiler who has no clue how assembly works.

Could you please provide us with some of the technical side if the changes you have done since MiC, Chris, Den, Max, Dai and Fehmi created the US frontend and loader.

 

You claim to have changed and rewritten 40% of the emulator and 3 major changes, but these are not listed. Were the changes frontend only or have you done anything to the core, and if you have changes the core then what exactly was changed.

 

If you read all the information presented, you would know that Sega was contacted both by land mail and email.

 

Sega did not, has not, responded to the land mail.

 

Sega did respond to the e-mail, and sent it to tech support.

That was THEIR decision to let tech support handle it.

 

How does this justify the legality of this project? Because they haven't responded does not give you the right. The wise thing to do would have been to wait and get permission before hand.

 

Here is a quote that we would like answers to aswell.

 

"You still have no managed to explain the one thing that all us developers are still wondering. How does one assemble(compile) these sources? as for modifying it to use DirectX 8, not sure why you'd do that now that DirectX 9 is around, not to mention all versions of DirectX are "backwards compatable" due to the COM architecture, meaning that upgrading to DirectX 8 is no special feat if it even requires any major changes at all or if it was not DirectX 8 to begin with."

 

(ment to post this in the Poll thread but it was deleted)

Edited July 15, 2004 by Keith

[Gryph]

As a frequent member (I would say more than frequent ) of this site, I too would like those answers. Currently I am hosting Cassini on my FTPs but I wasn't aware of these legal problems. I was under the impression it was a true open source emulator in which a bulk of it is original and something that serious developers could easily start working on.

 

Unless some of this legal stuff is resolved, I'll have to remove Cassini from my FTPs...

[Keith]

I must also say I am in no way coming for trouble but would like to get some answers to questions that have gone ignored.

 

It is also nice to be a part of 1Emulation community and I look forward to being affiliates in the near future.

 

I will be sure to post elsewhere on the forums

[Alpha]

I must also say I am in no way coming for trouble but would like to get some answers to questions that have gone ignored.

 

It is also nice to be a part of 1Emulation community and I look forward to being affiliates in the near future.

 

I will be sure to post elsewhere on the forums

It's great to see you here, I would have never thought it could be possible.

Welcome to the 1Emulation Forums and I hope you enjoy your stay.

 

PS: I will keep this thread and move it to the Current Affairs after this forum is deleted in 24hrs.

[ken_cinder]

I suggest you simply do it now. If you didn't catch his snide response to my accusation of not only packing, but obfuscating it as well. It was nothing more than a "No sh!t Sherlock!".

He just can't seem to wrap his thick skull around the problems with this. It's not the fact he may have hacked it, it's not even really the fact of it being illegal to begin with (We all know there are plenty of hacks floating around), but to claim something for your own and slap a whole new name on it? What a god damn slap in the face to the Giri Giri team.

 

I spent nearly 3 hours last night tearing executables apart, comparing code, doing hex dumps and comparing those, and more. As far as I can tell, he's done nothing more than pack the EXE and obfuscate the code contained within. I can't tell if he's done any real alterations to anything, because of the obfuscation! (Why obfuscate the code? Who knows, he ran off right after I asked him to tell us why he has something to hide)

 

In the end, this should not be supported by any emulation site that has any respect for what emulation is all about. It boils down to nothing but that. Keith chooses to not allow it based on legal reasons, very good ones infact. And even if he there wre none, who is anyone to tell someone how to run their website? If anyone tried to dictate to me how to run mine, I'd show them the door. This "hack" is worse than any hack around, simply due to the fact of it being claimed as their own.

 

I don't think I should say any more, I'm starting to get a little steamed about the entire thing.

[Keith]

Very nice post and something we have been trying to get across. Our goal wasn't to tell sites not to support it, but to give them information so they could decide for themselves.

 

Just like the work IJTF_Cinder did to find more information about it by going to the technical side is something that we have been trying to do and we are finally getting some answers.

 

Just like I have posted before..

 

This information and debate are not about the users using this emulator. The users are going to use the emulator anyways regardless if it is legal or not legal. It is the same with ROMS and other forms of illegal software. What people choose to do is up to them and we are not here to tell them what to do.

 

This debate is about the legal and moral side of taking a project and hacking it to make it your own when you don't have the right. It is also about protecting the emulation scene, the developers, and our fellow sites from these types of projects.

 

Past projects have been viewed the same way. Originally GiriGiri hack was not covered by emulation sites because of legal reasons. Emurayden is not covered which is a CVGS hack. Same goes for other hacks that have come along such as ePSXiPC which was nothing more then a hacked ePSXe, and the Veritas SPU plugin which was a hack of the PSX SPU Plugin Eternal SPU. I am sure there is many more and all of these are not supported by the emulation community.

 

In the end it all comes down the integrity of the Emulation Scene and how sites want to be perceived. EmuFanatics and myself are connected with many emulation developers who I consider good friends who have supported our site and I feel supporting a hacked project is a slap in their face.

 

Like many people said if you want to make an emulator.. fine, but make it your own or start with a "true" open source project and build on that. Taking other peoples hard work and calling it your own no matter how much you have claimed to of hacked it, is just morally wrong to me. I think I have been pretty opened minded up to this point, but I feel I should give my opinion on the matter and this is it.

Edited July 15, 2004 by Keith

[Gryph]

Very nice post and something we have been trying to get across. Our goal wasn't to tell sites not to support it, but to give them information so they could decide for themselves.

 

Just like the work IJTF_Cinder did to find out more information that is what we have been doing and the true side of it is finally coming out.

Yeah, I hope people don't say stuff like "1emu bent to EmuFanatics pressure...pwn3d!" because then they don't know what's going on. After reading your warning the other day, only then did I know something was afoot. When I first read about Cassini, the first Open Source Saturn emulator, I was as happy as a little girrrlll. Slowly everything started to unravel about its dark secret.

 

I guess the only thing that can set this right is a letter from Sega and/or Shinya Miyamoto proclaiming that Giri Giri is no longer theirs and that disassembling it is ok.

Edited July 15, 2004 by GryphonKlaw

[Keith]

Yeah I would hope the decision is based off of their own thoughts about the Cassini project on not pressure from any sites. I would still enjoy and support 1Emulation if they continued the support of Cassini and was never an issue. GameCop was and probably still is in a tough spot, and I know I wouldn't want to be in it. He seems like he knows what he is doing and I have full confidence he is making the right choice.

 

I think a lot of stuff could have been avoided if some actual legal permission was given before a release was made.

 

Then there is the other points that have been brought up by IJTF_Cinder, and I think we are entitled to some technical answers to see if this is a real project with real work being done or just a rehack of a hack.

Edited July 15, 2004 by Keith

[gavin19]

Since Gamecop has already stated that this forum will be deleted in less than 24hrs it is a bit pointless trying to promote any discussion in here, especially given that this debate deserves more than a 24 hour shelf-life.

 

As GC recommended the 'Current Affairs' section, you would be better advised to continue there.

[Keith]

Yeah the first post was posted before the announcement was made of the discontinuation of these forums. GameCop menioned moving this thread once this forum is removed.

Edited July 15, 2004 by Keith

[gavin19]

I think an altogether new thread would be better IMO. Simply to start with a 'clean slate'.

 

Then maybe the debate could advance beyond flaming

 

Maybe it would be appropriate for a Team Cassini member to 'get the ball rolling'?

[Keith]

I don't really see anything wrong with the current thread. A few questions were asked and now we are just waiting for some answers.

[Alpha]

When I first approached the Cassini Team, they stated to me their emulator was completely LEGAL. They gave me the email from Sega as evidence and I read the post on EmuFanatics that Keith is still working to find more information about it. No one besides Keith and others really cared at the time on what this email could lead up too. I think that once the Cassini Emulator was released, slowly in a matter of hours, people realized that there was something fishy about the emulator. I was very surprised since I believed in the Cassini Team and was helping them resolve these issues with people stating these claims on the emulator. EmuFanatics then made their "Warning" message which furthermore surprised me since Zophars posted the emulator and hosted a mirror as well which still as of now supports the emulator.

 

I continued to help the team and tell them that they have to comment on these accusations, but I then noticed that everything they said was countered. Not one thing got through EmuFanatics (which is pretty damn good ) and I also was getting concerned that people might start thinking 1Emulation likes to help these kind of emulators which is not true at all.

 

Then I started talking to people, a lot of people, including Keith which I am proud I did. It lead me to the conclusion that this emulator had severe problems. I then talked to more people, comparing what Keith said and what others said. I was really in a blackhole since people were saying it's legal and support it and others said no it's a bad idea and it can potentially hurt 1emulation.

 

Then when I checked 1Emulation again, I noticed that people on EmuFanatics started calling us names. I then let it go when I talked to Keith since honestly 1Emulation has gone through a lot and all I am trying to do is make it as legal as possible. It's hard to make such a transition. Once I let that go, I read with Jiggs said, added it into the bank of thoughts on the emulator. I also then read what EmuFanatics had to say about what Jiggs said as well since he brought up some interesting points.

 

Later I talked to Miskie and he stated that this emulator is purely ILLEGAL. I then got an instant message from IJTF_Cinder which most of you guys read and it stated that the emulator was a complete "obfuscated" program and also that he could not stay with a site that supports this. I then told him to post it in the Poll thread which I later made because I honestly had no idea what to do.

 

Finally, after I posted the Poll, I had another conversation with Barnito. He stated that he's alright if we can't support the emulator and then he asked "What Poll?". By the time I knew it there was a ton of mass messages on Direct Connect. It was to over a 100 people which stated to basically "VOTE YES" on the poll, nothing much more. After I saw this, my decision was done and so was Magnis's. Shortly after the topics were deleted and now were here.

 

To make a long story short, there is not much I can say. When I was presented this emulator, it was showed to me as legal and it looked as if everyone was welcoming it to release until it was actually released. It was my fault that I didn't research the emulator more before I supported it. However at the exact same I was supporting it, I was also researching it. It's a shame the poll was deleted in my opinion, but then again I'd probabaly would vote not to support this emulator in the long run.

 

It's just too much to handle for an emulator, I just took my first break off the computer to think about how to make this post after 6 straight hours. (didn't even eat lunch today) I really wish that this never happened, but at the same time it allowed me to meet new people and even gave me a better understanding on how emulation works.

 

Finally I have now recieved a last response from Barnito that he was not on his computer after I responded to his mass messages which may well be true or not be true. I've known Barnito for almost 2 years, I honestly don't think it was his fault since he did not code it, Snail did. I have no comment towards Snail since honestly I don't know what to say anymore towards him. I felt the comments toward IJTF_Cinder was not polite and turned me down even more. I have suspended people's accounts when they insult other admins or flame at all. There is not much more I can say which further made my conclusion and Magnis's.

 

But I can only see and say so much, I am not a god you know.

 

- GameCop

[Keith]

GameCop the same happened to me, I was presented with the emulator and at the time felt it was alright to support it. The only problem I had with it at the time was that it included a bios in the download. Then as I was presented with more information I started to see it differently. Once it was released as Cassini a lot of sites were confused and posting it as a "new" open source Saturn emulator. So I made the general warning post which led to the rest.

 

So I understand where you are coming from GameCop.

Edited July 15, 2004 by Keith

[[RR]Rommaster]

what pisses me off is a bunch of fanboys TRY to kill something on the grounds of morrality, but they are hypocrits, because not ONE of them is innocent..... EVERYONE has roms they HAVE NO RIGHT TO.... this is no diferent... at all...

 

Barnito

Edited July 15, 2004 by [RR]Rommaster