Warehousing sites

[Sybarite Paladin AxL]

I understand megaman is against the practice of linking warehousing sites, for obvious reasons. However I wish to change that. That decision was made by him and I am personally against it. We should really comment on this however, just to give this poll a start, I'll leave it at that.

 

Also, to clarify, warehousing sites are sites that host M.U.G.E.N. developers' works without asking their permission first. This would include characters, stages and other MUGEN-related works. I am pro warehousing sites because many great characters are lost because their original creators' sites often go down without further notice and it becomes increasingly difficult if not impossible for the common M.U.G.E.N. user to get a hold of them. Naturally, this would not go against the rule that states that, should you release a mugen creation, you'd have to ask for the author's permission to release the game in the first place. Discuss.

 

edit: I accidentally null voted instead of voting for Yes. 1emu really needs a "view results" that doesn't destroy your right to vote. so remember to add 1 to the yes votes always when counting.

[Devia Eleven]

I absolutely would.

[Sybarite Paladin AxL]

I really don't see whats the big flocking deal. Its better for the community IMO.

 

My sentiments exactly. It's quite similar to emulation if you ask me.

[Inky]

I dun really mess with mugen anymore but I know how hard it can be to find what you are looking for. authors drop out of site and then all the sudden no one is supposed to use thier stuff unless they know someone who has it. it's ridiculous. once it is out there. it should be out there for everyone. thats kind of the point of emulation and mugen I think.

 

so yeah I vote yes.

[BlackKnight]

I voted no.

 

My 2 cents about all this;

 

Any site that compiles author's work without their permission is wrong, and should not be supported. Maybe many MUGEN asset creators disappear because the scene doesn't properly respect their creations? You may think that not listing warehousing sites is a disservice to the end users, but their existence might be an even bigger deterrent to those people out there creating the content.

 

I don't know if this is the case with MUGEN or not, but on moral grounds I have to say no; keep them off 1emu.

[Sybarite Paladin AxL]

I voted no.

 

My 2 cents about all this;

 

Any site that compiles author's work without their permission is wrong, and should not be supported. Maybe many MUGEN asset creators disappear because the scene doesn't properly respect their creations? You may think that not listing warehousing sites is a disservice to the end users, but their existence might be an even bigger deterrent to those people out there creating the content.

 

I don't know if this is the case with MUGEN or not, but on moral grounds I have to say no; keep them off 1emu.

 

Since I'm not that much of a MUGEN aficionado, my opinion may be silly but so far I doubt that hosting their work without their permission would cause them to disappear completely. As I see it, when an author gets tired of updating his characters or other MUGEN work, he leaves it on his site. After a while that site may go down because of hosting costs. Then those works become extremely hard to get and in the end, isn't that the purpose anyway? It's certainly very sad when great characters disappear because of their creator's lack of interest.

 

Let's be realistic here, no one is going to sue anyone for hosting their MUGEN works, simply because 80% of them are sprite rips that actually belong to a real company, hence not the MUGEN developer's original property. That's why MUGEN developers don't actually sell their works. They'd get a bunch of legal problems in heartbeat from the actual owners.

 

On the other hand this doesn't stand for completely original MUGEN characters like the late Reuben Kee's Dragon Claw character. That's actually 100% original and copyrighted. Not sure how the climate is around major sprite edits tho, like making a character from Ryu's stance sprite but completely redrawing it inside so it looks like something else, only with Ryu's outline.

 

Regarding the existence of warehouse sites that would detere MUGEN developers from releasing their work, I fail to see how they'd actually do that.

[BlackKnight]

It's all a matter of respect though. People spend time and energy making things. Whether they are derivative works or not, the authors deserve to be respected, credited and asked for permission, if not compensated. Its that simple- warehousing sites could seek that permission if they could be bothered.

 

Just because you necessarily relinquish some measure of control over work when you post on the net, other people shouldn't have the right to do whatever they want with it. I didn't say lawsuits would come into it, but that's a good illustration of my point. Let's say some bozo somewhere prints off a disc with a lot of MUGEN assets and sells it for a sum money, none of which finds its way to the individual authors? That much is obviously unfair- the only difference between that scenario and warehousing the files is that the theft becomes intellectual- the authors are still being robbed of something.

 

So again I don't know jack all about MUGEN but on principle archiving other people's stuff without their consent is irresponsible. I stand by my no. If this kind of thing happened to anything I authored, it would absolutely deter me from releasing any more work in the same channels.

[Sybarite Paladin AxL]

That's true but the "bozo" scenario happens either way. That's really besides the point, considering we're asking just to allow the linking to warehousing sites. As well as the fact that I'm not advocating doing whatever we want with the developer's work, I'm simply saying that we should be able to actually play with it, in this case, play with the characters/stages etc., because I still fail to see how, by simply making the developer's work more widespread and available, we'd be automatically disrespecting and discrediting him etc.

[alexis]

I am with you Axl, besides, linking to a warehousing site it;s just that, then in the end it comes to everyones personal choice, in case the author still has a site then you will always visit that site first since there you will be able to find the his latest works instead of getting some old work somewhere else

[Sybarite Paladin AxL]

I am with you Axl, besides, linking to a warehousing site it;s just that, then in the end it comes to everyones personal choice, in case the author still has a site then you will always visit that site first since there you will be able to find the his latest works instead of getting some old work somewhere else

 

My point exactly, in the end, if you care about updating your MUGEN, you'll always visit author's sites regularly for updates anyway. My main problem here is that, you can't just go googling for MUGEN developers instantly. It's they were all put in a list of sites at least, it would be so much easier.

[-SyN-]

It's looks like BlackKnight is the only one here with some sense.

 

from reviewing this topic, you seem like that you are desperate and wiling to take whatever means to get what you want despite the creators wishes, but apparently it don't matter you you.

 

Just as long as you get what you want, the hell what others thinks.

 

As far as rules and such being made about certain creations. Those creators, such as myself, have that right!

 

We take the time out of our daily schedule to create such things and no its not an easy task. Let me clear something up, We as creators make stuff for mugen because we find it an enjoyable hobby, we don't create for you, but we may share our creations with the internet. Thats our choice and all we ask for something simple as do not distribute our works out side of our site.

 

Now you speak of creations and authors leaving the scene without notice. Ever take a minute and think what would be the cause behind that? You topic fully support what I just explained.

 

Anyway I am definitely against this and you know whats the funny part of all of this?

 

You guys find a leaked character warehoused on a site, you break your necks to get that creation, then you start crying about its broken or crappy.

 

What you expect from betas being leaked by random jerks?

[Gryph]

Did you ask the artists at Capcom, SNK, etc to rip their artwork, sprites and animate them to use in another program?

[Devia Eleven]

Controversy over Redistribution of M.U.G.E.N Works

 

There has been debate over the act of hosting the works of content creators for the engine without consent from them, a practice dubbed "warehousing." Warehouses and content 'megapacks' are generally seen as ideal for new engine users who are able to obtain a lot of usable content quickly with little searching. Arguments have risen against this practice. Since the "warehouse" would host all the content they previously downloaded, the content users are unaware of the original source of the content and possibly miss any patches or updates related to each piece of content. Another issue stems from the fact that many authors gain revenue in one form or another by visitors to their sites, be it by advertising banners on their site or merchandising (such as that sold by Mugen Institute for their original Dragon Claw character.) The use of "warehousing" has the potential to drop the amount of visitors to the author's web site, resulting in a loss of feedback, distribution of updates, or as in the case of Mugen Institute a possible loss of revenue.

 

There is some controversy on the legality of warehouses. Although most of the authors have not registered copyrights pertaining to the code or graphics used to create the content, much like hosting a videogame FAQ it is considered in violation of the author's copyright unless permission to host is given.[28] The debate ranges from original design by authors as well as derivative works or fan art often taken directly from previously released video game characters.[29] A violation of copyright of the original designs would be where the original author has good standing to legally sue an offending web host if the correct documentation was filed before the release of the content.[30] Typically it is argued that legal action is not sought for the misuse of most M.U.G.E.N creations because the origin of sprites and sounds has been ripped from commercial games even though the program code is crafted from scratch or templates.

 

The debate over warehousing has been long standing, but several key arguments stand out:

 

* The argument that the engine itself is freeware due to flockt not being required or asked for and the timeout function of the program still leaves it fully functional, and thus covered under freeware laws. In reply, opponents state due to the license agreement[5] obtained by Elecbyte, which in part may still apply, M.U.G.E.N itself is actually shareware, and covered under the laws governing such.[15]

* The argument that when copyrighted characters or sprites such as those owned by Capcom or SNK are used in the works, the works themselves are a violation of copyright and thus any claims are to be argued as null and void. Capcom, SNK and other companies have not shown any ill will towards those using sprites/sounds from their games when creating content for the engine, despite being aware of the practice for several years. However, French Bread previously had a notice on one of their older websites that expressed not to convert material found in their games.

* Some sites host original characters generated by the author themselves (such as those by Reu or Rikard), in which case the characters are still copyright of their authors. The copyright on the code itself is the key factor here, though the claim of copyright has been misinterpreted to cover the sprites or the character concept.

 

As M.U.G.E.N. add-on creator Igniz once stated at the MugenBR forums:

 

"Imagine that you're in school. Now, let's take that Capcom, SNK and the rest are the text books. Now imagine that a M.U.G.E.N. character is your classmate's homework. You get the rest."

 

However, people who don't support this stance cite Elecbyte's official statement in the enclosed documentation that "the reason for the open file formats is so that you can share techniques with other developers."[15] Yet there has been a great deal of controversy regarding permission (or lack thereof) between coders.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.G.E.N

[Sybarite Paladin AxL]

It's looks like BlackKnight is the only one here with some sense.

 

from reviewing this topic, you seem like that you are desperate and wiling to take whatever means to get what you want despite the creators wishes, but apparently it don't matter you you.

 

Just as long as you get what you want, the hell what others thinks.

 

As far as rules and such being made about certain creations. Those creators, such as myself, have that right!

 

We take the time out of our daily schedule to create such things and no its not an easy task. Let me clear something up, We as creators make stuff for mugen because we find it an enjoyable hobby, we don't create for you, but we may share our creations with the internet. Thats our choice and all we ask for something simple as do not distribute our works out side of our site.

 

Now you speak of creations and authors leaving the scene without notice. Ever take a minute and think what would be the cause behind that? You topic fully support what I just explained.

 

Anyway I am definitely against this and you know whats the funny part of all of this?

 

You guys find a leaked character warehoused on a site, you break your necks to get that creation, then you start crying about its broken or crappy.

 

What you expect from betas being leaked by random jerks?

 

I like how you assume things about me so easily without even a shred of evidence. I especially enjoy how you generalize and shove me in the same boat with all the other dudes. Oh, how I enjoy people who jump on bandwagons without even so much of an inkling of forethought or analysis.

 

So you're saying creators leave the scene because one of their works, which they decided to share with the Internet, is being distributed to a greater extent ON the Internet? See what I did there?

 

Let me clear some things up for you my friend. I'm not much of a MUGEN character collector. I have stuff to do, just as you do. And I take time away from that stuff to give a crap about your work. This is how it is. And the same goes for other people. And people would pay a lot more attention to your work if they could actually analyze it for themselves. The only real reason MUGEN developers leave the scene is because no one gives a crap about their work. And you know why? Because we can't actually see what he/she did. We can't actually appreciate that and give him credit for it.

 

But you already knew that, seeing as you apparently know everything about me. Why else would you decide it was a good idea to throw me, and/or any of the other posters that are for this change, in the same boat as every other retard in the MUGEN scene. Maturity for the win yo.

 

To answer your last two sentences, you obviously didn't read my previous post. And for the record, I could care less if this change was implemented or not. There's nothing a good google search can't dig up anyway. This would have just facilitated it and would've allowed us to share between ourselves like a community, further enhancing my point stated above.

[-SyN-]

Did you ask the artists at Capcom, SNK, etc to rip their artwork, sprites and animate them to use in another program?

 

 

Actually Yes!

 

That issue was discussed plenty of times and at plenty of places. Those companies consider mugen as fan art and see nothing wrong with it.

 

Check mugen guild and Randomselect for more info pertaining to that.

 

-edit-

 

go to http://randomselect.i-xcell.com and look for news post March 18, 2007

 

March 18, 2007

 

Alright, let's cut to the chase. Messatsu recently emailed Capcom and SNK to see what their official stance is on stuff like M.U.G.E.N. Capcom's was what we all expect: it's fan art as long as you don't sell it. SNKP's was different: they said no to having their stuff used in games they didn't make. But before everyone screams the sky is falling, it should be pointed out this was SNKP's USA branch, and the validity of them having any say was brought into question because they 'don't make the games' and are 'just the USA branch'. Messatsu in turn emailed the Japan branch, and I sent a more detailed email to the USA one. No reply either way.

 

So all's good, right? Depends. To me, getting told no and then not getting any further reply isn't exactly a sign that it's all okay. Even the community doesn't do that. So if I ignore this, I'm a hypocrite for telling people no and ignoring it. I can't bring myself to do that, I respect the people in the community too much for that. The email Messatsu sent asked about "non-profit games", which doesn't exactly leave a lot of wiggle room for statements: mugen is in itself been turned into a game, and there are still plenty of mugen full games that utilize SNK stuff. And no this isn't in thread of some lawsuit or something, it's more a case where what's right is what's right.

 

So to this extent the database will have the SNK sections severed, excluding RotD (SNKP holds no rights to this game or the characters), CvS chars (they were licensed to capcom who has in turn given us permission anyway, so meh), and stuff like Rikard's work which would be insane to block as it'd be pretty much saying "you can't even do SNK shading style! >". Yeah.

 

Mine, Rolento's, Helios's, Psicoso's, and ZSabreUser's SNK stuff is gone also. Whether other hostees follow suit is up to them. I'm not going to force my morals onto these folks. And that goes for the rest of the community too: if you take this as law or not is your choice, I'm not going to dictate things for you.

 

On the bright side of it all, at least as Rolento put it RS will be a lot easier to update.

 

March 21, 2007

 

Behold the hard earned reply, and all that good jazz. Oh yeah, you can't call creators thieves anymore for this stuff.

 

The rest of RS will be restored tonight. Hopefully. Should be. Either way thanks for those of you who supported us, and those who threw a tantrum and sent death threats, you may now go ---- yourselves. ;D

 

 

 

Solved that problem, now on to the next.

 

 

@ Axl

 

Let me clear some things up for you my friend. I'm not much of a MUGEN character collector. I have stuff to do, just as you do. And I take time away from that stuff to give a crap about your work. This is how it is. And the same goes for other people. And people would pay a lot more attention to your work if they could actually analyze it for themselves.

 

Not a valid excuse.

 

I have stuff to do, just as you do.

Umm correction, I create stuff, you leech stuff. HUGE difference.

 

But you already knew that, seeing as you apparently know everything about me. Why else would you decide it was a good idea to throw me, and/or any of the other posters that are for this change, in the same boat as every other retard in the MUGEN scene. Maturity for the win yo.

 

No I don't know anything about you, but I know the path you follow by starting a thread like this.

 

To answer your last two sentences, you obviously didn't read my previous post. And for the record, I could care less if this change was implemented or not. There's nothing a good google search can't dig up anyway. This would have just facilitated it and would've allowed us to share between ourselves like a community, further enhancing my point stated above.

 

Um, I clearly read this post and from your view behind it, you can care less and disrespect an authors wishes.

 

The only real reason MUGEN developers leave the scene is because no one gives a crap about their work.

Logic Error!

 

I have been involved in Mugen since 99/2000 because of people like you and threads like this, I seen many leave and go private and when that happens, people like you are the first to complain about it not realizing that people like you are the cause.

Edited January 14, 2008 by -SyN-