RPGs; Eastern vs. Western

[NeoMaster]

FF8 owns hard...but I don't think the developers knew how to end it properly so orphans for all.

[OverlordMondo]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

FF7 was an extreme dumbing-down of the Final Fantasy series. Equipment selection was reduced to a linear progression of single weapons and a single armor pieces. All of the magic and other special abilities were reduced to a single, incredibly simple, universal, and easily abuseable special ability system. Characters were reduced to a magic stat, some hit points, and some cute limit animations by the Materia system. It didn't matter who you used - the guy with the highest magic and the most materia slots was always the best choice if you knew what you were doing. The story was stupid too, full of throwaway characters and literary cop-outs, but that's subjective so I'll let it slide. In short, FF7 hit a homerun with an easy to learn (and easy to master) system, lots of time-wasting mini-games, and a "cool" attitude, but it sucked as an RPG compared to the SNES titles.

 

FF9, on the other hand, was a welcome return to the series' roots. Characters had individual abilities, so who you used actually made a difference to gameplay beyond the occasional limit break. The item combination system made equipment more interesting than "more AC, more slots." The story was more traditional, but wasn't bogged down with "My main character is a spirited youth, no he's a clone, no he's an incarnation of gaia, no he's the son of a man and a hedgehog" for half the freaking game. But that last point comes down to subjectivity again. The art direction wasn't "cool" like FF7's, but the game was far more intricate and entertaining.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, almost. You just have to remove the fact that you did max damage at level 50 without any effort at all. You know Ozma? The "secret" boss of the game? He can be beat as early as level 1. It contained Chocobo "Hot and Cold", the worst minigame ever, and yet, the only way to complete most of the sidequests. Final Fantasy9 didn't mark a return to the series' roots, it marked its downfall.

 

Final Fantasy 7 did remove a lot of equipment slots, leaving only weapon (specific to character), armor (a wristband), and accessory (always a ribbon). But it added the materia system, which I liked. I wish it had been more complicated. Adding things like charcter specific materia, or limiting in some way the materia that could be used, but I still loved the system. My favorite part about it was the support category of materia, that was linked with another materia to give special bonuses. It's like they took away 3 equipment slots, and added 16. Final Fantasy 8 had no equipment slots, but it had junctions, which were kinda cool, but I think I prefer the materia system.

 

Also, Final Fantasy 7 had a great story. If you want useless characters look back at Final Fantasy 9. That red dude? Quina? No purpose at all. Even the main character, what was his story other than he'd been a womanizing thief all his life? Even Vincent from FF7 had more story than that, and he was a completely optional character.

 

Final Fantasy Tactics had one of my favorite systems. Complete with a plethora of skills and every equipment slot you need. All that with the addition of being able to use monsters in battle.

[Agozer]

Dont mac on the gunblade. That thing kicks major amounts of ass. And the girls too...zOMG!

I meant that the Gunblade is the epitome of cool. Wrong wording, apologies.

[Wizard]

See, practically everyone says at least one or a few things wrong about FFIX = instant bad.

[Daeval]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, almost.  You just have to remove the fact that you did max damage at level 50 without any effort at all.  You know Ozma?  The "secret" boss of the game?  He can be beat as early as level 1.  It contained Chocobo "Hot and Cold", the worst minigame ever, and yet, the only way to complete most of the sidequests.  Final Fantasy9 didn't mark a return to the series' roots, it marked its downfall.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you like mindless level grinding, then I guess that could be a drawback to FF9, as you didn't need to do it. I don't know too many people who would consider that a bad thing though. Yes, Hot & Cold was rather lame, but ALL the mini-games in the FF series have been lame, and most of them have been mandatory at some point, so whatever. As for beating Ozma at level 1 - yes you can do it, but it takes some flocking extreme dedication. It's not some simple matter - you've got to deliberatly play the game with that goal in mind, killing as little as possible and running from everything. If you want to play it that way, or even if you just want to beat it early, that's your decision to make.

 

And how the hell can you call it a downfall? The later games took absolutely nothing from it.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's like they took away 3 equipment slots, and added 16.  Final Fantasy 8 had no equipment slots, but it had junctions, which were kinda cool, but I think I prefer the materia system.

Nevermind that it completely stripped out any sense of character-level strategy. It's not the same as equipment slots because equipment supplements your characters' abilities, it doesn't define them. You can give equipment to another character and by stacking it with their inherent abilities, you get something subtly different. If you give your Materia to another character, you get the exact same abilities with the only variable being their Magic score. You can argue combinations, but there are only so many that matter, and once you have them you don't break them up anyway.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Final Fantasy Tactics had one of my favorite systems.  Complete with a plethora of skills and every equipment slot you need.  All that with the addition of being able to use monsters in battle.

And you have the balls to call FF9 broken? Frog battle, anyone? I happen to agree with you though, I like FFT's system a lot.

[OverlordMondo]

If you like mindless level grinding, then I guess that could be a drawback to FF9, as you didn't need to do it.  I don't know too many people who would consider that a bad thing though.

It's not mindless level grinding. Every level is an accomplishment that grants you greater power and abilities, allowing you to face bigger and stronger monsters. When you can defeat God at level 1, what's the point to leveling? Granted, you pretty much hate the basis of RPGs, so you wouldn't understand. Grinding isn't just tedium, it's training. You're training yourself to be a better character. If you don't like it, you don't do the side quests, as getting through the story levels you enough for the final boss. In fact, getting through the first 4 minutes of the game levels you enough for the final boss.

 

Yes, Hot & Cold was rather lame, but ALL the mini-games in the FF series have been lame, and most of them have been mandatory at some point, so whatever. 

Hot & Cold wasn't "rather lame", it was the worst thing to ever grace the video game industry. I'd rather play Stake then play Hot & Cold. And you're one who says he likes to avoid tedium. Yet you enjoy the Final Fantasy with the MOST tedious mini game in it, EVER. And the other ones weren't nearly as bad. Chocobo racing/breeding was great fun. The weird chocobo whistle thing was similar, the only difference was that it wasn't random and didn't make what you were searching for have a 1% chance of being found.

 

As for beating Ozma at level 1 - yes you can do it, but it takes some flocking extreme dedication.  It's not some simple matter - you've got to deliberatly play the game with that goal in mind, killing as little as possible and running from everything.  If you want to play it that way, or even if you just want to beat it early, that's your decision to make.

See though? The challenge isn't beating him at level 1, it's getting to him without leveling at all. You beat him based solely on equipment. It's like going to the store and buying some steroids rather than actually training.

 

And how the hell can you call it a downfall?  The later games

took absolutely nothing from it.

They still sucked though. Final Fantasy 8 was the last good one. 9-11 all suck. Tactics Advance sucked. I don't think there were any others besides those, but those suck bad enough for 3 or 4 more good ones.

 

Nevermind that it completely stripped out any sense of character-level strategy.  It's not the same as equipment slots because equipment supplements your characters' abilities, it doesn't define them.  You can give equipment to another character and by stacking it with their inherent abilities, you get something subtly different.  If you give your Materia to another character, you get the exact same abilities with the only variable being their Magic score.  You can argue combinations, but there are only so many that matter, and once you have them you don't break them up anyway.

As if FF6 was much different. Every character learned every spell. There were characters with special abilites, but they weren't really all that different, it was pretty much based on who you thought looked the best. FF7 is similar in the respect, but instead of getting every spell, you can only get a certain amount of them. And besting the WEAPONs is something that actually requires skill and though, unlike beating Ozma, which requires wearing equipment that absorbs all of the enemies attacks.

DISCLAIMER: I like FF6. And 5, not so much 4, 3 and 1. 2 was meh.

 

And you have the balls to call FF9 broken?  Frog battle, anyone?  I happen to agree with you though, I like FFT's system a lot.

Frog battle? What? You lost me.

[Wizard]

Yes, Hot & Cold was rather lame, but ALL the mini-games in the FF series have been lame, and most of them have been mandatory at some point, so whatever. 

Hot & Cold wasn't "rather lame", it was the worst thing to ever grace the video game industry. I'd rather play Stake then play Hot & Cold. And you're one who says he likes to avoid tedium. Yet you enjoy the Final Fantasy with the MOST tedious mini game in it, EVER. And the other ones weren't nearly as bad. Chocobo racing/breeding was great fun. The weird chocobo whistle thing was similar, the only difference was that it wasn't random and didn't make what you were searching for have a 1% chance of being found.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

DAIKITANA.

 

Sorry, but that is a complete disgrace at anything in video games.

[OverlordMondo]

Yes, Hot & Cold was rather lame, but ALL the mini-games in the FF series have been lame, and most of them have been mandatory at some point, so whatever. 

Hot & Cold wasn't "rather lame", it was the worst thing to ever grace the video game industry. I'd rather play Stake then play Hot & Cold. And you're one who says he likes to avoid tedium. Yet you enjoy the Final Fantasy with the MOST tedious mini game in it, EVER. And the other ones weren't nearly as bad. Chocobo racing/breeding was great fun. The weird chocobo whistle thing was similar, the only difference was that it wasn't random and didn't make what you were searching for have a 1% chance of being found.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

DAIKITANA.

 

Sorry, but that is a complete disgrace at anything in video games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Compared to Hot & Cold, Daikatana is KOTOR.

[Gryph]

I've never played this Hot & Cold but it can't be THAT bad, can it? That's too horrible to imagine.

[Wizard]

I find that impossible to accept.

[Agozer]

I've never played this Hot & Cold but it can't be THAT bad, can it? That's too horrible to imagine.

Chocobo Hot & Cold in FFIX is loads of fun. At least I think it is.

[Jjangthekid]

Chocobo Hot & Cold in FFIX is loads of fun. At least I think it is.

 

Yup, hot and col was fun but it took me a while to find those damn places! After finding all that, I tried to beat Ozma but I couldn't. meh.

 

[edit]:

 

Final Fantasy 9 wasn't that bad, nor was it that great. Heck it was better than FF8 in my opinion. FF10 was fun soley because of the blitzball and the unique "sphere" upgrades. I'm not sure about X2 though, never got the chance to play it.

Edited February 21, 2005 by Jjangthekid

[Agozer]

Chocobo Hot & Cold in FFIX is loads of fun. At least I think it is.

 

Yup, hot and col was fun but it took me a while to find those damn places! After finding all that, I tried to beat Omega but I couldn't. meh.

 

[edit]:

 

Final Fantasy 9 wasn't that bad, nor was it that great. Heck it was better than FF8 in my opinion. FF10 was fun soley because of the blitzball and the unique "sphere" upgrades. I'm not sure about X2 though, never got the chance to play it.

You mean Ozma I suppose. X-2 is fun, I don't care what some of you say. I still haven't beaten it though. It's hard and I've missed a few cool Dresspheres.

[Daeval]

It's not mindless level grinding.  Every level is an accomplishment that grants you greater power and abilities, allowing you to face bigger and stronger monsters.  When you can defeat God at level 1, what's the point to leveling?  Granted, you pretty much hate the basis of RPGs, so you wouldn't understand.  Grinding isn't just tedium, it's training.  You're training yourself to be a better character.  If you don't like it, you don't do the side quests, as getting through the story levels you enough for the final boss.  In fact, getting through the first 4 minutes of the game levels you enough for the final boss.

There's a huge difference between mindless grinding and a balanced RPG. Walking around and killing hundreds of the same enemy is an example of the former. Increases in power can come from a wide variety of gameplay experiences, and a good RPG will mix them up and prepare you for what's ahead in a transparent way - without making you think about how many more randomly encountered gaint sandworms you have to kill before your stats are high enough to survive the boss. A good example would be Fallout. If killing the same three enemies for an hour and a half gives you a real sense of satisfaction, you might consider ditch digging as a career option.

 

And you're completely under-representing what it takes to beat FF9 at level 1. You can't just walk into the boss' chamber and hit him with your wooden sword or whatever. It's not a valid comparison for difficulty because you won't be playing the same game. Furthermore, I'm sure the people who actually went to the trouble to do it on gf would be pissed at your belittling of their achievement.

 

Hot & Cold wasn't "rather lame", it was the worst thing to ever grace the video game industry.

Now you're just being ridiculous. I'm sorry you were so frustrated by it, but it wasn't that much worse than any of the others, and was just as optional in most cases.

 

 

See though?  The challenge isn't beating him at level 1, it's getting to him without leveling at all.  You beat him based solely on equipment.  It's like going to the store and buying some steroids rather than actually training.

And you beat Sephiroth solely on Materia. You have to grind to get some of the materia, and do stupid mini-games, but the equipment doesn't fall in your lap in FF9 either. Furthermore, knowing which specific sets of equipment to put together is more complex than knowing to equip your most powerful summons and some Quatra Magic. It's a matter of abusing the tactical system, and while it may be an oversight by the testers, it's not a good example of the game as a whole..

 

As if FF6 was much different.  Every character learned every spell.  There were characters with special abilites, but they weren't really all that different, it was pretty much based on who you thought looked the best.

All of the characters had special abilities, and they all made a difference unless you grinded like a madman and got everyone Ultima with Gem Boxes and Economizers. Sabin, Terra, Locke, etc, all had different abilities which were useful in different situations, and which couldn't be swapped between them. If nothing else, it offered the game a variety that 7 doesn't have.

 

Frog battle?  What?  You lost me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The "Frog Battle" was an extremely easy way to earn all the JP you wanted in FFT. Turn everyone into Frogs, set everyone to Auto-Battle, and go have lunch.

 

All in all, it's a matter of opinion. I have mine, and my reasons, and you have yours.

Edited February 21, 2005 by Daeval

[Wizard]

Yes, Frog Battle was so much fun.