PhilExile
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Posts posted by PhilExile
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One thing that could help the pixel perfect purists in their
insane screen adjustments, could be to set up the directional
digital pad to also move/stretch/squeeze the screen.
- Directional pad alone resizes the screen, to up, down, left, right.
- And if you hold A and press the directional pad, you move the screen on the offset X and Y.
....................wonderful for arcade cabinet owner and haters of the most infamous controller
in the face of the third planet from the solar solar system, the Xbox MS S-Controller.
This would be great! T, is that possible?
Definetely I am not having good moments with 480p. Some INIs I tried from youzip gave me images too wide, with a lot of overscan, like for example Armored Warriors
and Alex Kidd. Then, still under 480p, I tried to re-adjust them, and there is no way
to find the perfect width spot in a CPS game.
There is a bug in FBL that doesn't allow a preconfigured 10x11 INI to be implemented. T is looking into fixing it for the 1.5 release. ALEX KIDD is one such game. Just go into video settings and turn off 10x11, then turn it back on. It should fix the overscan issue you are having.
PS. I have not tried all your INIs. I went right after the CPS1/CPS2 ones, the mostimportant for me due to their wide native aspect ratio.
Don't, there are a lot of errors, which I discovered this morning. I'm combing through them now and fixing them, so I'll resend shortly.
And you, did you tried to open DINO.INI in your FBL 1.3?The link is on the previous page.
Not yet, but I will!
Talk soon
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At the moment, I'm using just a cheap 19" Acer LCD (switching between the XB and this comp via an X2VGA+)
Time to upgrade.
I would setup an alert for SONY PVM on your local Craigslist. I got one for free that way and another for $100. Call post-production houses or advertising agencies that have video editing suites too. Sometimes they have stuff they are looking to get rid of.As for filters/etc, oof, I hate 'em...I'm all about hardware Point + no software filter, and no scanlines. Back when I -was- using 480i, about 90% of my posts on the X-S forum were trying to get people to adopt/embrace adding the option for changing the Flicker Filter/soften filter in different emus/etc after 'FlickerFucker' came out and I saw how sexy games could be in composite/S-Video 480iI hate them too, but billinear is the best if you need to get rid of screen size distortions - it does hide it very well.
Another filter I also dig is the 'NTSC' filter that's in NestopiaX and MadMab's update of AtariXLbox...although I don't think I'd seriously play through something for a long time with it on.Ya, that filters the most 'realistic' I've seen, however, its not 100%. I have a real NES hooked up to PVM via composite and it definitely doesn't look much like the filter in Nestopia - or as bad. It really depended on your TV and connecting cord too.
With the HLSL stuff recently added to the PC version of MAME though, I'm already seeing a lot of gross screenshots from people who think that arcade monitors were almost fisheye/peephole shaped and had darkened scanlines thicker than the visible rows of pixels.I'm not familiar - could you post a link?
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Yeah, I'm probably not the best person to review these. I still don't know how resizing a screen to be 'pixel perfect' could be anything other than 1x/2x/3x/4x/anyotherInteger * the emulated game's actual output resolution.
OK, no problem - for some reason, I thought you had the PP sickness.
In 480P, no amount of fiddling with the 10x11 and Widescreen Fix options made the few games I tried show no scaling artifacts -AND- show the entire screen.Right, that's the trade-off. If your CRT overscales the picture a lot, you will loss some information. The ideal is to either get a video production monitor (Sony PVMs are great), which will allow you to adjust overscan or use an LCD in 480P mode.
I don't know if it's my setup or how the .INIs are, but the first example I ran into was 1941, where yes, the scrolling was nice and smooth with no artifacts, but the top (score area) and bottom (VITAL/lives/ROLL area) of the game's screen were way past the edges of the visible area of the monitor itself.1941 is a vertical game and I set the PP to work with the SCREEN ROTATION set to DISABLED. On my monitor it works fine with the WIDESCREEN FIX: ON. If you still have some overscan, turn on the 10x11 pixel ration fix - that should cure it. However, if you turned the WIDESCREEN mode on/off it may have goofed up the INI I sent you and you'll have to re-copy it over.
Since I'm not playing on a 4:3/3:4 CRT, but on a 16:10 VGA monitor, I just end up running everything in 720P and scaling w/correct aspect, and I just deal with the alternating-size pixels caused by the scaling :/OK, you might as well - especially if it doesn't bother you. You can use some of the filters to hide this type of stuff - like billinear. Just out of curiosity, what model monitor do you have?
Thanks again for testing.
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Maybe that's it then. Gilou9999, I could send you a few of my old PP INIs, along with the new 1.4 versions so you could test out this theory if you want.
Like I said earlier, I never really got around to going through the entire FBL set and creating PP INIs for all of them - so starting from 'scratch' now isn't a worry for me - just as long as other 1.4 users don't have any problems.
just a thing i noticed that could explain this issue importing the inis from fbl 1.3:the skin
in the skin folder there is a file called arcade.ini wich contains the 4 lines mentioned above
zLeft0=1.150000
zRight0=-9.480121
zTop0=-5.350028
zBottom0=5.270025
these values are differents of the values used by the default skin of fbl 1.3
just a clue, im trying to understand with you guys
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Thanks for reporting this. Seems to be a driver issue. I'll look into fixing it for 1.5.
No problem - thanks!
I think I may have mentioned this before but I'll do so again anyway just so everyone knows how the screen sizing works. Here comes the science bit... FBL has a set of hardcoded base values that determine the default screen size, these cannot be changed by the user at all. When you run a game it creates an ini file which contains 4 lines named zLeft, zRight, zTop, zBottom. These values aren't independent size values, they are modifiers that get applied to the hardcoded base values. So since I did not change the base values for the default screen size in FBL1.4, I see no reason why the modifiers in your ini files would produce a different result to 1.3.OK, well, its not a huge deal anyway. Usually things were off by only a few XY coordinates. As long as I can give these INIs to anyone else using 1.4 and they can use them without issue - that's all that matters.
When you use the global screen size setting, all it does is create a set of these modifiers in Screen.ini which get applied to any game that does not already have an ini file. So again, the base values are not altered, only the modifiers.Great, sounds perfect.
The Widescreen Fix option however DOES use an separate set of hardcoded base values, so any modifiers in Screen.ini or a game ini will be applied to these alternate base values and will produce an entirely different result to having the Widescreen Fix option off.That's what I noticed. Overall, I think it works really well.
If any of that makes sense then hopefully it will help you give me an idea of what you think needs to be changed to accommodate what you're trying to achieve.Like I said, as long as anyone with 1.4 can use the INIs I'm creating (with the help of Cos!) - then I think everything should remain as-is. I sent out some of the INIs to people to test late last night, so hopefully we'll hear back soon on how its working out.
Talk soon
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Anyone else get slow, stuttering sound in 1942? For me, it's noticeable at the very start of the game when it plays the little tune during & after takeoff. (game itself is running at 59.9~/60fps)
Hi JL,
I think that is a sound driver issue. Something similar happens with GHOSTS & GOBLINS. I remember IQ told me it had something to do with how the sound was emulated, but I'm not sure exactly what it was. Mabybe he could chime in.
Let us know how those INIs work!
Thanks
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Phil,
I did try the 480p setup in my LCD 720p and
got just bad results. The scanlines itself look
exactly as in 720p mode, however I was not
able to find the pixel perfect width settings for
a CPS1 game, for example.
I did reach "the correct width" point only
if the image is very very very very wide,
with SO MUCH overscan, or with the image
very very very very narrow, completely
wrong regarding the correct CPS native screen.
I wonder if this is your TV's doing. I just made a bunch of perfect pixel INIs that work for me in 480p mode. I'll email them to you now so you can try them out.
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+T+, while testing I noticed one weird thing: the game Action Fighter (FD1089A 317-0018) has garbage graphics on the title screen when you first launch it. If you start the game and then go to the menu and reset it, this seems to correct the problem. I don't know if this is a ROM issue, FBL issue, or something else entirely - but I thought you should know.
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Regarding the perfect pixel INIs: Anyone who would like to try them, please PM me. I was only able to get through the #s and As today - so this is going to take some time. People should test though to see if they are working universally.
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+T+, none of the 1.3 perfect pixel INIs transferred without needing to be tweaked to some degree. At this point, I don't think this is a big deal since I never go through all the games anyway. My only concern is the possibility that the 'universal' screen size somehow is affecting the custom INIs that I'm creating. I don't think it is, but we should find out for sure.
Also, I noticed that when the WIDESCREEN FIX is applied, it does affect the 'pixel perfect' sized screen. For instance, if I set the perfect pixel size for 1943, then apply 10x11 pixel, and finally, Widescreen Fix, the vertical size of the screen is slightly reduced, along with the horizontal. This is easily fixed by just adjusting it manually. Again, I don't think this is a problem, but I thought you should know. Overall, I think that Widescreen fix works really well.
OK, that's about it.
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Chat client is an easy answer; I don't use one, sorry. I have my email open most of the time for work though so you'll usually get a fast response there if I'm anywhere near the computer.
OK, send me an email to remind me. I think you have mine.
I picked up on the 10x11 bug earlier in the thread. Will fix it for the next release. There was a similar bug with game-specific hardware filters not applying on startup, but I managed to catch and fix that in 1.4.Oh, OK, great - I didn't realize that was previously reported.
I'm going to go through the As and let you know how it goes.
Talk soon
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So are you saying that 1.4 is behaving precisely the same way as 1.3 in this regard? From what you say it doesn't seem like doing anything to the default base screen size values will do anything other than mess things up for you so I'll hold off on that until I hear what conclusions you come to from your respective testing.
Not exactly. Could you PM me with a chat client name that you use? (AIM, Gchat, MSN) It would probably be easier to discuss that way.
Also, I did notice a bug - I think. For some games in 480i/p mode, a combination of 10x11 pixel mode and widescreen fix (which is awesome btw) can 'correct' widescreen games like 1943. However, I noticed that when you return to a game like this, it says that 10x11 is ON in the video settings, but it is not. You need to turn it OFF, then back ON for it to take effect. Is that something that can be fixed? I'm not sure if its actually a bug or not.
Thank you again, +T+
Sparda, sorry to hear you got hurt - that sucks. Rest up. If you want, I can send you the first batch of PP INIs. All the numbered games. Just PM me if you're up for it.
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OK, I did some quick testing and from what I can tell, the perfect pixel INIs, previously created in version 1.3, work fine with a tweak here or there. For instance, sometimes I'll pull up a game and the screen will be off horizontally or vertically by 1 pixel X/Y coordinate. This used to happen time to time in 1.3 as well when you were opening a game up 'fresh' so to say.
Cos, I think you're problems are from a buggy scanline filter in 720p mode. Test out the 480p INIs and let us know what you find.
+T+ could you look into adding the rotation 'lock' for the next release? I just played '99: THE LAST WAR and each time I launch the rom, I need to change the screen rotation to 180 degrees from the default 270 degrees. This would be great for people with TATE setups.
Thank you again for all the hard work!
I'm going to be working on the complete perfect pixel set and will provide it to Fumanchu (or whoever) for distribution. This may take me a while, but I'm going to bang out some now for the next hour or so.
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Hi Cos (and everybody)
I'm going to be trying out the pixel perfect INIs and FBL 1.4 today. I'll let you all know what I find.
Cos, just so you know, I always had issues with the scanline filter when using 720p mode in FBL. Try turning it off, returning to the game, then turning the scanlines on again.
I saw this same distortion and its why I gave up on 720p and stuck with 480p. If you're TV has a decent upscaler, then 480p looks great. All the guys at the System 11 Shmup forum use this mode.
Cheers everyone!
Hej hej!The pixel guy is back from the crypt!
I have some news!
First of it all:
+T+, please grab my dino.ini here:
http://famicominvisivel.org/xtras/dino.ini
I am sure you will be curoius to perform
some operations I do explain below...
News: Number One:
I don't know why it did not work yesterday, but finally I was able to
import a INI from FBL 1.3 into FBL 1.4. I did choose to make the
process using a single game to be sure that everything was going smooth.
I did pick Cadillacs & Dinossaurs. It worked! My INI was read by FBL 1.4!!
...and this generated a bug found!
Number Two:
After importing my pixel perfect scanlined screen from Cadillacs into
FBL 1.4 I noticed it was "almost perfect"... strangely the screen was
not absolutely AS IT WAS in FBL 1.3.
I did took pictures, real shots, with my camera. It is easy to spot
the differences. Dear +T+, please give me your opinion on this...
Let me explain in detail each image.
In the pic 1, we have a screen from dino.ini in perfect aspect ratio.
Since I use scanlines filtering it is simple to notice that there is no distortion at all.
It is FBL 1.3.
The second screen shows the same game just opened in FBL 1.4 with
the emulator default clean install screensize. Check the green area.
A lot of ditortions! It's super easy to see that when using scanlines filter.
And the third image is the same game opened in FBL 1.4 BUT using
the imported INI right from FBL 1.3. Ok, it is not as bad as the previous
picture, but it is not correct/perfect as the first one! But wait... It is
the very same INI! Something must be going on under the bridge...
Pay attention to 2 green distortions... One in the bottom of Capcom logo
and one in the bottom of the C letter from the Cadillacs.
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
And Number Three:
Here is my INIs for all people interested!
I suggest to run it under FBL 1.3.
And they are 720p!
http://famicominvisivel.org/xtras/fbl_pixel_perfect.zip
Best regards!
Cospefogo.
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This looks good, T! Just to confirm, people who want to use custom, perfect-pixel INIs for each game can still do so right?
Just to keep everyone up-to-date. Xbins is currently having some problems and uploads aren't working so I'm taking the time to add a Widescreen Fix option. This automatically corrects the aspect ratio to 4:3 on a 16:9 display.So this:
becomes this:
Also, as an afterthought, I'm planning to have separate default screen sizes for SD and HD modes, since HD doesn't need the overscan compensation (black frame) that the current defaults have. I really want this release to focus on getting things looking perfect no matter what your preferences might be. Oh, and the new default skin with marquee support has to be seen to be believed.
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I'd be more worried about my butt-hole.
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The long answer is; FBL's true default screen size values are hardcoded into the emulator and cannot be changed. What you are doing when you resize the screen in the UI is defining a set of values that act as modifiers. The sum of the base value + the modifier determines the screen size. The modifiers are represented by long decimal values that are relative to the base values and therefore cannot be translated into standard pixel dimensions. So how useful the ability to directly edit them will be I'm not sure, but it does make it easier to share your screen size with other users.
Right, you basically have to eyeball it.
Luckily, since I have a PVM with Emotia, it makes it VERY obvious when something isn't 'perfect pixel' - T, I know you hate that term, but I can't think of anything better. Cos actually started all these INIs for me and got them 95% without the aid of real 240p - which is basically inhuman and amazing!
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The long answer is; FBL's true default screen size values are hardcoded into the emulator and cannot be changed. What you are doing when you resize the screen in the UI is defining a set of values that act as modifiers. The sum of the base value + the modifier determines the screen size. The modifiers are represented by long decimal values that are relative to the base values and therefore cannot be translated into standard pixel dimensions. So how useful the ability to directly edit them will be I'm not sure, but it does make it easier to share your screen size with other users.
Right, you basically have to eyeball it.
Luckily, since I have a PVM with Emotia, it makes it VERY obvious when something isn't 'perfect pixel' - T, I know you hate that term, but I can't think of anything better. Cos actually started all these INIs for me and got them 95% with the aid of real 240p - which is basically inhuman and amazing!
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Unfortunately, due to the way FBL handles video, it's extremely difficult to determine how many pixels or what ratio a given screen size is. Anyone who has ever tried to achieve a specific size on Zsnexbox will understand exactly what I mean. In terms of visually filling a screen the system works great but it's simply not intended for use of specific values.
I can supply you with accurate pixel sizes for each game in 480i/p mode in a few weeks. I'm going to check each so they are 'perfect' as much as they can be.
Also, can you please make sure there is a way to lock the screen rotation so that FBL remembers it? Currently, if you chose a verical game - lets say Ms. Pac-Man - and set it to be rotated 180 or 90 degrees, FBL doesn't save this part of the config (it does save the screen size) so that when you launch the rom again, its set to 4:3 instead of 3:4.
Make sense?
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Hey +T+
I'm actually curious about how many people here are using SDTV or HDTV. Do you think you could put up a poll?
Also, I think it would be fine to do a global, scaled setting - but leave the option for a custom screen size. I wouldn't take features away.
What were the enhancements in MAMEoX128Plus?
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I know what your saying, however, anyone with an HDTV can do this. Its only if you want scanlines that you'd need an SLG3000.
I'm guessing 80% of the people out there don't even notice or tweak their screen settings though.
Also, EVERYONE should try to get a PVM (RGB monitor) these days. People are practically giving them away - literally. Check your local Craigslist!
Well yes, if are actually going to take a proportional resolution and use an external device to stretch it to 4:3 then you are indeed achieving an accurate reproduction of the original display. But I'm sure you'll agree that most users don't have the benefit of such additional equipment and therefore won't achieve anything resembling the original hardware using these 'pixel perfect' settings. I understand that a lot of people see using proportional resolutions as improving on the original video by not stretching it to full screen as the original output would have done. I guess this is the same as graphics filters, some like the 'enhanced' look and others prefer a more accurate representation of original system. Each to their own I suppose, it just irks me whenever I hear anyone describing 'pixel perfect' as being more true to the original system. This simply isn't so unless you're using a setup such as yours to achieve 'pixel perfect 4:3'. -
Hey T, I know what you are saying, but I disagree.
The easiest example I can give is the NES (I know its not an arcade, but bear with me) Its native resolution is 256x240, which means its 'perfect pixel' is 512x480. The actual NES output is stretched to 640x480, the length of an SDTV screen.
Now, with perfect pixel, you can see bars on either side, but there are ways around this:
1. SDTV + Extron Emotia - Using this device, along with an XBOX in 480p mode, you can achieve true 240p output from the XBOX. This is the same as an actual NES. However, the bars are still there. Luckily, the Emotia has a horizontal stretch dial so you can make the output fit 95% of the screen - its not perfect, but damn near close.
2. HDTV + SLG3000 (optional) - Set the XBOX to output 480p and use 10x11 pixel ratio. This will make everything look really thin on your HDTV - aka the black bars on either side actually get bigger. Now, change your TV's picture setting from 4:3 to 16:9. This will stretch the displayed image to be a perfect 640x480 image. If you use an SLG3000 in combination with these settings, it gives the appearance of the original NES output.
The same sort of tweaks can be done for arcade games, but I've found most of them render fine. For instance, I play Ms. Pac-Man a lot on my vertical 'tate' PVM. I can't tell the difference between it and a real arcade machine in my local bar.
Some games don't work right though, as +T+ is pointing out, however, its pixel perfect is essential, especially if you are either using 240p mode via the Emotia or simulating scanlines with the SLG3000. Everything 'locks' into place and looks very sharp - that's the best way I can explain it.
Never understood the appeal of 'pixel perfect' myself. Just seems like an inventive way of making arcade games look completely different to how they actually looked in the arcade. All these crazy numbers may be 'pixel' perfect but good old 4:3 is arcade perfect. -
Thanks again, Fu! I want SNES!
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Wow, this is really great, thank you both!
IQ, your mom says 'hi'
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Thanks, Fu! Where are these descriptions from?
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What will happen next?
My guess - this part of the forum will likely be a ghost town in a month.
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Hey BP,
I'll be around this weekend to chat. I finally got a chance to really play with the new CoinOps2 and its working great! Thanks again
FBL 1.4 pixel perfect ini discussion
in Final Burn (FBA/FBL/FBC)
Posted
OK - after playing around with this some more and then going BACK to 1.3, I have to agree with Cospefogo - there is definitely something affecting these screen values.
I opened PROGEAR in 1.3 with no problems - both the horizontal and vertical sizes were perfect with no distortion. I opened this same game in 1.4, using the same INI - immediately, the game was too low, causing it to be off-register with the scanlines. I could not get the horizontal size to 'lock' without having distortion.
T, could you please take a look at the screen sizing code that you changed again? I've spent, literally, an entire day working on this, and I'm 99% sure there is something wrong.
Thank you again for your help.