PhilExile
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The Extron Emotia takes the 480p signal and converts it to 240p. If you are getting scanlines from the XBOX under 480i, its because the image is interlaced and the TV is refreshing a bit slowly. 240p is a stable signal, unlike interlaced. Check out this site for more information:
http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/
Its explained very well there.
Thanks bunch, this is great stuff!SDTV Setup- Buy an Extron Emotia | See here for more details: http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/
- Buy either a Frosty VGA cable, YUV -> VGA converter, or build your own VGA cable
- Set your dash/emulator to 480p
- Set your emulator to 'perfect pixel' size - i.e. 512x448
- Once everything is hooked up, stretch the horizontal size of the picture to the maximum on the Emotia
- Flip the interlacing switch on the front of the Emotia to activate 240p
I thought that 480p was ED, not SD but I'm known to be an idiot with this stuff.. I get some scan lines from the cheepo 480i SD TV I bought super cheep. I wonder how that compares to adding the Extron in the mix.
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I've been using the X-Arcade trackball - not to mention spinner dial* - with CoinOps for a few years now. Is mouse input supported in FBL?
* - http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.p...products_id=268
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Looks very interesting, Ace, thanks!
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Rock on, Fu!
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Madmab,
How difficult would it be to add a PNG overlay, with an adjustable opacity?
Thanks for chiming in.
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XBOX - Mednafenx-NES 240p, Frosty VGA Cable -> Extron Emotia REDUX
By turning up the peak on my VGA switch, I was able to sharpen the image. Now the image is on par with the Wii's Virtual Console
emulator - the gold standard in my opinion. Not bad for a 10 year old console.
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This actually looks pretty F'n cool!
Ace, do you have download links for the regular Budwin edition or is this just available via torrent?
You wont find the Marvel \ DC version just yet... Its in beta at the moment... I have the IMG file so if you grab the budwin or pitch edition this file just replaces itI have not put anywhere to download as its only a beta so you wont find it online
It is almost the same as the budwin version but the Peds have changed
Joker, superman, batman (different version) iceman etc etc LOAD of new peds, Billboards etc... Budwin will be also changing the load screens and start screen (I helped him with the artwork for those) but he has been working on this for MONTHS
Example Venom is 390MB, he needed to be remodelled to 90mb to fit or the game kept crashing
FULL CREDIT TO BUDWIN FOR THE TIME AND EFFORT HE IS PUTTING INTO THIS PROJECT !
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Ha, no where! I determined with this new round of test that my previous experiment with SUPER STAR WARS on Snes9x was flawed. I had 10x11 pixel ratio turned on by mistake on my SDTV, Sony PVM setup.
Basically, you can mimic the 'look' of SNES/NES games with your Xbox emulators on either SD or HDTVs. Just for clarity:
SDTV Setup
- Buy an Extron Emotia | See here for more details: http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/
- Buy either a Frosty VGA cable, YUV -> VGA converter, or build your own VGA cable
- Set your dash/emulator to 480p
- Set your emulator to 'perfect pixel' size - i.e. 512x448
- Once everything is hooked up, stretch the horizontal size of the picture to the maximum on the Emotia
- Flip the interlacing switch on the front of the Emotia to activate 240p
HDTV Setup
- Buy an SLG3000*
- Buy a YUV -> VGA coverter (I've had spotty luck with the Frosty cable on modern HDTVs)
- Set your dash/emulator to 480p
- Set your emulator to 'perfect pixel' size - i.e. 512x448
- Set the pixel mode to 10x11
- On your TV, set the video mode to stretch to fill the screen. This is different on every TV, but you are basically taking the 4:3 signal from the Xbox and scaling it to fill the 16:9 viewing area of the TV
* The SLG3000 (& VGA converter) wouldn't be necessary if scanlines were built into the emulator. I *think* this is planned for the next release of SNES9x by Madmab.
Enjoy!
Well, I am a bit confused now.Where are we all trying to go from here?
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Well +T+, i looked at those composite pictures you linked.
Im afraid i have to disagree with you, composite looked the worst and the most washed out of the 2 samples, in my eyes.
I also looked at the waterfall in the Sonic pic and have to disagree again, you forgot to mention the horrible rainbow type interference in the waterfall in the composite picture.
I guess what im saying is, it doesn't really matter does it, whatever floats your boat.
Exactly.
We are all different and want something different as far as our old games go.I personally think scanlines are an awful distraction and let's be honest, damned ugly and unnecessary nowadays.
Gasp!
I prefere upscsaling my roms to to a 720p screen and having nice crisp graphics.Those old school sprites look like they've just been made, bright and vibrant. The filters on these emu's are brilliant.
Ya, this does look pretty good actually, but it should always be scaled proportionally, otherwise, things look goofy - like the SONIC 2 two-player portions:
As far as "pixel perfect" goes ( i still say it doesn't exist) i scale my roms to suit my HDTV (minus overscan) perfectly.It exists on the Xbox, you just need to work to get it. SD = Extron Emotia, HD = 10x11 pixel mode + stretch function + SLG3000. This creates an image that is consistent with what the real hardware output.
I have never suffered this horizontal line flickering / bleeding etc that everyone seems to suffer with.Right, if you use the filters, this hides the distortion. I actually think the filters are pretty good for the most part - except for those ones that smooth out the pixels in weird ways. Shudder:
All i can say is that your not setting your screen sizes exactly right, perhaps you've wandered so far down a path full of different ideas that it's now hard for you to see what's really a simple thing to do.At the end of the day it doesn't matter, there is no right or wrong. Set your screens how you wish to view the roms.
Righto!
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Also, I noticed last night that I had 10x11 pixel mode activated on my PVM setup. This is why the PVM screenshot was too thin!
Cos, I hear what you are saying. People do crazy things to attain better image quality. Just look at the NES RGB mod: http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.0
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I don't see the point. It would introduce pixel distortion (probably on visible when the screen is moving) and bilinear would need to be turned on to mask it.
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LAST ONES - The Pole
I thought this was interesting because of the texture that is created in the pole at the end of a Mario level by composite output. We can also take a look at Blaarg's NTSC filter - Composite compared to the real composite output on the same monitor.
NES - 240p, Composite
XBOX - Nestopia 240p, Frosty VGA Cable -> Extron Emotia - BLAARG'S NTSC FILTER - COMPOSITE
It looks pretty good, but its not 100% spot on. Though, I think you can tweak this filter to your liking. Also, the video output quality may vary from
NES to NES.
WII - 240p, Component
XBOX - Nestopia 240p, Frosty VGA Cable -> Extron Emotia
XBOX - Nestopia 480i, Component
XBOX - Nestopia 480i, S-Video
That is all.
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CLOSEUPS
NES - 240p, Composite
WII - 240p, Component
XBOX - Nestopia 240p, Frosty VGA Cable -> Extron Emotia
XBOX - Nestopia 480i, Component
XBOX - Nestopia 480i, S-Video
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Hello,
I had a chance to do some comparison shots of the NES favorite, Super Mario Bros. See below for the interesting results. Note: I only did SD tests for this round. I may add HDTV versions later. Please make sure to click on each screen to view it full size.
NES - 240p, Composite
The original hardware. Note: The blue sky continues on the right side of the screen.
WII - 240p, Component
Wii Virtual Console in action. I was actually surprised about how saturated the image was. However, upon closer inspection it looks
like the right values, just bumped up a lot.
XBOX - Nestopia 240p, Frosty VGA Cable -> Extron Emotia
The color values here aren't quite as saturated and I sorta prefer this to the Virtual Console. The image isn't quite as sharp here either, however, this
is probably due to my having the 'peak' set to minimum on my VGA switch - so this could be sharper.
Also, the Extron Emotia has a horizontal stretch dial that can increase the default image size. This works better than I thought. When looking at
these images, I can barely tell the difference - width wise - between this and the Virtual Console version. (Another reason to get an Emotia)
XBOX - Nestopia 480i, Component
Standard component output here. It actually looks pretty good, but the image is fluttery due to it being 480i. Colors are nice and bright. The only
downside here is that the 512 image width is apparent. The picture isn't too great, just focus on the lower portion of the image.
XBOX - Nestopia 480i, S-Video
Standard s-video output here. Again, the image looks really good, but the colors are a lot less vibrant. (More noticeable in person)
(Continues....)
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Hi T,
Well, the Genesis output is rubbish, but the programers used this rubbish output and combined it with dithering to create effects that the Genesis was incapable of doing on its own - doing more with less basically.
Hooking the Xbox up with composite may give you different results. First of all, are you hooking it up to an SD or HDTV? If its an HD, the display will likely upscale and filter the 480i signal being output. Also, since your using composite, your only going to get 480i and not 240p, which is how these games were actually output on the original hardware. Additionally, I think the XBOX's composite output isn't as 'dirty' as old hardware like the Genesis or PCE.
This is a reason why I really like Blaarg's NTSC filters. They aren't perfect, but they are pretty damn close to making games look as they did. I do like the crisp look of RGB with scanlines most of the time though, personally.
Apparently it's not as rubbish as previously thought. Take a look for yourself (scroll down to the Genesis shots):http://www.chrismcovell.com/gotRGB/screenshots.html#sms
See how the line dithering in Vectorman shows up as a solid colour in composite? Well that's a colour that the Genesis would be incapable of displaying otherwise. Also the line dithering beneath the spotlights in the same shot actually show up as a blue glow in composite mode (as they are intended to) whereas in RGB and the emulator shot, all you see are the dithering lines. And look at how the waterfall in the Sonic shot actually looks like water whereas the clearer images show it as just a bunch of vertical lines.
I'm sure there are other examples to be found of how programmers took advantage of composite blurring to achieve otherwise impossible effects in games, but these are great ones. I'm seriously tempted to hook my Xbox up with composite cables now just to see if these effects still work. And who knows? I may even leave it that way.
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Im confused, i always thought people knew that composite is rubbish (not to be confused with component, surely).
Not always, the NES has good, sharp composite output. Its just a matter of opinion. I actually prefer the colors from a NES composite signal to an RGB.
Also confused about the 1080p from an original xbox, mentioned in the title of the topic.It wasn't just a comparison between 1080p and 480p in terms of emulation. My first post I didn't even touch an Xbox. It was just to show that Xbox is enough and you don't need 1080 or even 720p for these old games.
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I'm going to experiment some more and see what I can figure out. I may also do NES comparisons sometime this week.
Also, here are two other newer RGB/Composite comparison pages from Chris Covell's site:
http://www.chrismcovell.com/gotRGB/rgb_compare.html & http://www.chrismcovell.com/gotRGB/rgb_compare2.html
There's some systems where the displays can fit the screen totally WITH pixel perfect settings like on a real CRT TV:sega genesis/32x/sega cd
most time games native resolution is 320*224 typically for a genesis game so pixel perfect on a sdtv is 640*448
After set the screen size to 640*448 and NO hardware or software filter, in this case (and only in this case) i use the 10*11 pixel ratio trick:
the result is a screen with 448 pixels height (fit perfectly the screen) and ~600 pixels width (fit perfectly the game horizontally)
also neo geo since most games are 302 pixels width native, on the xbox 604 is a perfect width
if the neo geo game is 320 native i use 10*11 pixel ratio trick (and only in that case)
for nes/snes/master system, you will always have blackbars on left and right margin if you want to achieve the pixel perfect screen , that's perfectly normal,
but as far as im concerned in the case of nes/snes/master system etc..., the black bars are quite thin and doesn't bother me...
You'll also achieve a screen that match the real crt output with pcsxbox since native output is 640*480, so with the 10*11 pixel trick again, it will works perfectly
and also winstonX (atari st) as a native 640*400 output so you can use the 10*11 pixel trick with this one
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Very interesting. By the way, what the heck does 'soften' do? I've never been able to discern a difference whether its on or off.
Yes, Cospefogo has hit the nail on the head. That's what I was referring to when I said to emulate the internal stretching would be impossible without altering the Xbox's video output. The 10x11 mode is a built-in function of the Xbox graphics adapter just like the flicker filter and display softening. An emulator can tap into these functions and make use of them, but it can't alter them unfortunately. -
OK, thanks, Cos. I wonder if there is another way to somehow stretch the image, almost like the opposite CoinOps's widescreen fix.
What I'm thinking is:
1. You set the boundaries of your monitor's video - just like CoinOps/MAME, instead of creating a perfect pixel setup (512x448)
2. Set every game to automatically scale by x2 for 480p, x3 for 720p and center on the screen
3. There could then be an option to stretch the screen based on the user defined screen boundaries
Example: (512) screen width size / (610) defined screen size = percentage to stretch horizontally (8.4%)
Although, this too may lead to distortions in the image. Its all hypothetical and I don't know anything about programming, so please take this with a grain of salt.
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Never say never, T.
I was just thinking about 10x11 pixel mode. Basically, that mode compresses the screen by (I think) outputing pixels that are taller than they are wider. Would it be possible to reverse this, in effect creating a 11x10 pixel mode? With this new mode the pixels would be wider than they were tall, thus helping with the black bar issue.
What do you think?
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The thing is, when talking about CRT TVs, it's completely redundant to refer to horizontal resolution. These displays don't have a horizontal resolution since the display is not made up of pixels, it's made up of horizontal lines. Each line is approximately one pixel tall so the number of lines used vertically does conform to the native vertical resolution of the hardware (except every other line is blank hence the scanlines). However the native horizontal resolution of the hardware is irrelevant since, however many pixels there are, they will always be stretched to the full length of the line. So in order to replicate this with an emulator we need to set the vertical size to a multiple of the native vertical resolution of the system (hence giving the correct number of 'lines') and then we just need to decide how long our lines are going to be, since this is determined by the display and is different for every TV; there is no 'perfect' value.
I know from working with these games on a PVM, that unless you set the horizontal size 'perfectly' there will be a distortion. For instance, when I tried to set a game like SALAMANDER to stretch to fill the screen through the emulator and go beyond 512 pixels - you will see these 'waves' that your ship will fly through. Its almost like a wrinkle in the screen. I'm not denying that in the arcade this game is stretched edge-to-edge most of the time. However, I think this is similar to the NES/SNES were there was something in the hardware that acted like an upscaler in some ways. It wasn't something that was specific to the CRT technology - as far as I know.
The best thing (and I don't know if this is possible) would be to build a second pass scale into an emulator. For instance:
1. You set your perfect pixel screen size or just set it to double the pixel size of the arcade rom - 256x224 becomes 512x448
2. Set your TV's resolution to 4:3 in the preferences
3. When you launch the game, the emulator scales the image to 640x448 to fit your screen*
*I believe this is what BSNES does.
And in case you're wondering about rotated arcade games. The above still applies since it's just a regular monitor turned on its side, so the vertical lines now appear to the player to run horizontally across the screen. The 'height' of the lines is still determined by the display and will still always be the same size.Yes, I know. I play a lot of MS. PAC-MAN, T.
I actually have a PVM set on its side for vertical games only.The SUPER MARIO WORLD is a great example. Again, I'm not arguing with what you are saying. Its just the way these emulators are built, if you don't find the 'perfect pixel' width - there is distortion introduced. There must be a way to stretch the image horizontally, after its been set, to fill the screen.
Talk soon
PS - I still plan on doing 'research' at the bar/arcade. Don't try to stop me, T!
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Entirely untrue. CRT displays, whether it's a home TV or an arcade monitor, can only display the native vertical resolution. It doesn't matter if a game's horizontal resolution is 320 or 256 or 512 or whatever; on a CRT screen the width will always, always be stretched or compressed to the same size. So to achieve an output that matches the original hardware (regardless of the system) you need a pixel-perfect vertical size and a fixed horizontal size. This is why I don't agree with the whole pixel-perfect philosophy, because varying the horizontal sizes is just plain inaccurate; no games were ever displayed on a CRT monitor in that way.
I'm not so sure about that. However, I'm willing to do some field work. There is a bar/arcade near me that has a good variety of games to chose from. I'll snap a few picts and then compare them to the Xbox output on my PVM.
Check any game you like on Wii VC and you'll see they all conform to this.OK, I'll check it out and let you know.
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After you learn about this stuff, it makes sense. I was confused the first time I read Fudoh's site too.
my brain hurts reading this post... -
So basically, to get an emulator's output to look as close as possible to the original hardware output it would be viable to use Wii VC for comparison.
Yes, at least for NES and SNES - I haven't messed with the other systems. Also, you have to be using a CRT SD television. The SNES9x and Nestopia ports also support 240p, but I think you need to change the output settings to native I think.
That's an interesting fact, I wonder how close an Xbox emulator could get to that with some tweaking.It can be done. The only drawback to the Xbox is its inability to output 240p. At one point, there were people trying to write a custom BIOs to enable the hardware to do this, but it never happened. Its possible the video hardware just made it impossible. This can be overcome by using an Extron Emotia and outputting 480p.
Every system is different. The NES and SNES weird output is what causes issues. For HD, it can be sidestepped, but SD users need something added that affects the video output after the 'perfect pixel' setting has been entered. This isn't as much of an issue for a system like the Genesis that has a resolution of 320x224. This is easily doubled to 640x448 - so there isn't a 'black bars' issue.
Arcade machines are a whole other animal. For the most part, their native resolution is how they were displayed in the arcade. However, there are always exceptions. This is why I'm always pushing for perfect pixel, T.
Without that functionality, the scanlines don't line up right and everything looks blurry.Obviously the benefit of scanlines is that they disguise the blockiness of the graphics and games were designed with this in mind so some kind of scanline filter on top might be good.Right, it also makes everything look sharper. I remember trying out the emulators at 1080i on my brother-in-law's HDTV years back and it was really jarring how BIG all the pixels were. The scanlines fix this. I can't imagine that adding scanlines would impact the performance much. I believe some of the filters are basically PNGs that are overlayed on top of the game.
That's a great link though Phil, really interesting to see the various comparisons.Ya, that site is awesome. Also, Fudoh's mini-sites are very informative. Its how I learned about all this stuff: http://www.hazard-city.de/
I may do a picture comparison for the NES too that would show a game output via:
1. A real NES to a PVM (240p) via composite
2. Nestopia/Mednafenx through the Xbox/Emotia to a PVM (240p) - Black bars will be present
3. Nestopia/Mednafenx through the Xbox/SLG3000 to an HDTV (480p) - This will match a real NES for the most part, but there are very slight differences in the way games are displayed.
4. Wii VC NES game to a PVM (240p) via component (YUV) - Again, this will be the same as a real NES, but there may be some difference since VC is emulation too.
5. Wii VC NES game to an HDTV (480p) with the SLG3000
Let me know if you have any questions.
NestopiaX 1.3
in XBOX Hacks [/xbox]
Posted
We have stray cats in my neighborhood as well . . . I wish someone would 'take care' of them.
(not a fan of feral cats)