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SNK is too lazy!!!!!

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#23
maninderb

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Capcom is 1000x lazier than SNK. Look at how many SNK characters got real makeovers. Kyo is on his third drastic makeover, Terry Bogard's Garou outfit is intact for KOF2003, etc. How many Street Fighter characters got a makeover? Chun Li and....well, I guess that's it. Demitri from Darkstalkers got a makeover (see my avatar) and guess what? It wasn't Capcom to do it! Morrigan is still sporting her original extremely dated sprites to this very day. Maybe SNK will again take the initiative and do what Capcom fails to with every release.

Look at how many times Terry Bogard got upgraded from Fatal Fury 1 to KOF2003. Compare that to any single Capcom character. Megaman's sprites get more attention than any fighting game character.

As far as the SNK characters not being redrawn in SVC, that's the whole point. Capcom vs SNK was put out by Capcom, which is why Capcom characters were only given minor graphical touches while all the SNK characters resemble the Capcom style. Look at Terry or Kyo and all will be clear. The Capcom characters in CVS had more pallette changes than redraws.

You don't need to worry about the game hardware. The next game is on Atomiswave. Maybe it'll look silky smooth like Guilty Gear X. The Guilty Gear visual style with SNK play mechanics would be the #1 fighting game. As long as the music doesn't resemble any of the Jazzpanese music from Capcom cames or has the annoying announcer guy yacking throughout the menus.

I like these Capcom and SNK debates though. Other people chime in please.

:lol: You mentioned that Capcom don't update their characters. That's totally wrong. I was mentioning game engines, not makeovers. If you give Ryu a makeover, will he look like Ryu? You see, Capcom characters are original but SNK tries hard to make their characters original. So no need to blame Capcom. Even if the characters haven't had a makeover, before, they have changed the graphics like the CVS series, the SF3 series, more than that, I also enjoy playing the EX series. So Capcom does update their characters, but their characters are much more original. :D

#24
random guy

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Hey, thanks for answering. And I understand the technical limitations emulators have to play with, hence why newer systems don't get emulated yet. But SVC Chaos...maybe I just wasn't running it properly, but graphically it really didn't look that much better than say Street Fighter Alpha. I suppose that is why you can emulate that and not, say, SFIII but I find it hard to believe that game makers continue to make games for the Neo Geo, if SVC is the pinnacle of graphics you can get for it, if there IS better technology out there. Maybe the golden years of arcade gaming are well behind us now...


EDIT: that second post was posted b4 I finished posting this one. That makes more sense - I really don't see CPS-2s and Neo Geo games being made much longer. IT also strikes me that this Naomi thing could be hard to emulate, because it strikes me that all arcade emulators will be harder to write than console emulators, as you are 100x more likely to own a console that you are trying to emulate than an arcade machine. I didn't realise that Nebula and Kawaks were not hardware-based emulators or whatever so they do not just act like a neo geo machine. I suppose that makes more sense considering their layout compared to the console emulators. But why does MAME have the same layout (eg a list of games, which you either have or do not) if it emulates Neo Geo hardware and the others don't - shouldn't you then be able to play a rom called anything and it would act just like the system and read it?

Thanks for clearing some problems up guys, but I'm still a little confused.

Edited by random guy, 22 January 2004 - 06:00 AM.


#25
webcarrot

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Btw, just thought I'd say. Garou was the pinnacle of graphics, not SVC.

#26
Agozer

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Btw, just thought I'd say. Garou was the pinnacle of graphics, not SVC.

Very true.

#27
KaliKOt

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Hey ryu and ken HAD slight makeovers. SF1 - Ryu's hair was red? and he wore slippers! sfalpha series (storywise before sf2) - new graphics and ken had long hair sf2 series - RED headband (from ken's ponytail) and they also refined him a little in the super games sf3 - new graphics of course cvs - new graphics.
btw: In svc, Not even 1 snk character got new graphics except for athena. and Takuma's mask DOESN'T count.
capcom was lazy for not doing all the other capcom characters in the cvs series.
and generally, the sfalpha look looks better than the kof look, but it is debatable for new kof characters

#28
maninderb

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I think SNK has a slight lead on Capcom.

Take the two most popular characters, Ryu and Terry as an example.

Ryu got a new look from SF1 to SF2 incarnations, another in SFA/Marvel, and the final one in SVC (done by SNK).

Terry Bogard changed in FF1, FF2, the Real Bout games, early KOF, late half KOF, Garou/KOF2003. An in CVS (by Capcom).  A lot of the Capcom characters in SVC were redrawn for the first time in literally a decade by SNK, not Capcom. But again, Capcom did their fair share of SNK character redraws in CVS. Both CVS and SVCs' redraws should be considered a non-issue, since the character HAD to be redrawn or the game would have looked more awkward than the Marvel series.

Most Capcom changes were color edits. Terry, and others from SNK, had numerous color changes as well throughout the course of KOF. Terry's pants, for example, have different shades of blue, as does Ryu's entire default color outfit in the SF2 series. In the end, the majority of SNK characters have more redraws while Capcom tends to stick with color alterations (especially in the SF2 series).

Of course, this is excluding CVS and SVC. I don't generally credit those games in graphics arguments because the sprites had to be redrawn for consistency sake. But if you wish to include them, then it results in a bit of a tie, since Capcom was forced to redraw more characters in CVS than SNK had to with SVC.

I guess my opinion could be countered just by total makeovers alone. SNK had quite a few, with Kyo a couple times, Terry once, etc. Capcom had Chun Li recieve a needless (but appreciated makeover), but did do quite a few makeovers bringing Final Fight and SF1 characters into the rosters. But SNK did their fair share with Athena, Ikari Warriors (OK, bad example), Art of Fighting, Fatal Fury, Samurai Showdown, etc.

Bullcrap! :) If you want to mention all the old fatal fury games, well, Ryu too has been updated many many times. The old SF1,SF2,SFA series, he was changed in mvc too, the CVS series, the SF3 series, and the EX series. Capcom doesn't think makovers are important cuz their characters are totally original, like, " the karate guy" (Ryu), "the arm stretching guy" (Dhalsim),
"the guy with the chain" (Akuma), "the chick" (Chun li). It proves that the Capcom characters are a lot more original than SNK characters. In fact, SNK copied Ryu and Ken and made Ryo Sakazaki, so to diss Robert Garcia, Capcom made Dan. :lol:

#29
maninderb

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I have to agree that capcom is lazier.

At least SNK is still releasing new fighters... even if they do reuse stuff.

That's not true. If you have 30 characters, doesn't mean its the best fighting game. The Kof series get so repetitive and boring. "Oh crap! 3 new characters, I gotta play it now!" wtf? SNK has never tried to redraw the sprites for the characters. If they did that, I might consider giving them props for the that.

#30
random guy

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Capcom doesn't think makovers are important cuz their characters are totally original, like, " the karate guy" (Ryu), "the arm stretching guy" (Dhalsim),
"the guy with the chain" (Akuma), "the chick" (Chun li).

Hey, that's not true... in certain Capcom games Dhalsim is BLUE! You don't think thats a full enough makover?

#31
Gryph

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Capcom doesn't think makovers are important cuz their characters are totally original, like, " the karate guy" (Ryu), "the arm stretching guy" (Dhalsim),
"the guy with the chain" (Akuma), "the chick" (Chun li). It proves that the Capcom characters are a lot more original than SNK characters. In fact, SNK copied Ryu and Ken and made Ryo Sakazaki, so to diss Robert Garcia, Capcom made Dan.  :)

I do agree with maninderb that Capcom does have the most recognition for its characters simply because it was the first successful fighting game franchise. Though I give major props for SNK for creating many interesting characters. And yes, a new KOF with 3 more characters is "HOLY crap! MUST PLAY!"

Akuma is not the original "guy with the chain." As far back as I can think, Wan Fu from Samurai Showdown is the first guy with the "chain" (prayer beads).

Where do you get SNK never trying to redraw their characters? Have you seen the progression from Fatal Fury 1 to Real Bout to KOF to Garou? Just Terry himself has been redrawn. Though the differences are minor and negligible, they created fighting games with the best gameplay (for me atleast).

Umm...dammit I lost my train of thought.

#32
Agozer

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In fact, Akuma doesn't have a chain; those are prayer beads too.. :)

#33
Carnicero

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Again, COLOR CHANGES are not the same as COMPLETE REDRAWS. So Ryu's headband or hair changing colors is different than Takuma getting a NEW FACE. Even a new face requires more effort than changing a pallette. It's not the same as drawing new art. Use the color editor in CVS and you'll see how pallettes work. You've got a few swatches of indexed color ranging from 0 to 255 (divided by 8 to get 0-31, or 32 levels). Capcom making Ryu's headband red is a matter of opening up the default pallette and setting the headband's range to 255,0,0. While SNK giving Kyo the white coat requires more than just a simple pallette change.

Everyone's been raising some good points though. I think Capcom and SNK are probably even after the years when it comes to graphical upgrades. I no longer think either side is lazy, they just did things differently. SNK is sure to take the lead though. Future SNK games are on totally new hardware, and Capcom has only Sammy vs. Capcom on the drawing board. So Capcom may lose the graphics battle just because they are failing to keep their fighting games current. They need to light a fire under their asses and redo Darkstalkers as the perfect opportunity to get back in the game on their own without having to lean on another fighting game maker's shoulder. SNK and Sammy are doing great on their own. If not a new Darkstalkers game, Capcom should put out Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 instead of riding coat SNK or Sammy's tails.




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