The Paul (From Tekken) Judo/Not Judo Thing

[Agozer]

can admins close this topic out of its sheer lameness factor?

Yes.

 

 

Closed for the time being.

 

EDIT: Opened again.

Edited September 22, 2004 by Agozer

[Daeval]

I figured this was closed because it looked 'tense' with flame, though it may have been just a little premature.

 

Regardless, I'm done "debating" with you, SNK. You made some interesting points, but you're still claiming victory over something I never contested. You've mentioned his American look, which is something I didn't give much thought to, as well as his Gi, which was thoughtful. You even talk about how most characters at the time didn't really look like their styles. OK, that's cool...

 

Then you jump right back on the wrong train, talking about what the designers were trying to go for, and claiming once again that I ever argued against this. For the last time, I said he didn't look like someone doing Judo. I never, in any of my posts, claimed that the designers did not mean for him to be judo-based. It's taken far too long for you to grasp this, so I'm done with the discussion.

 

If a Gi and two throws out of 18 moves in Tekken 1 are enough to claim Judo-based to you, that's a matter of opinion and we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

It was fun while it lasted. Good day sir.

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

Well I saw judo in Paul, you didn't. It was just a case of me saying why I thought or why he is judo based.

 

Plus - Ryu only gained his judo style Ryu throw in SF3. In all the other street fighters, he had a basic shoulder throw that threw them way accross the screen.

 

So back then, only Paul and had the judo throw

[Wizard]

It's all personal style each his/her own.

 

 

I win.

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

Some of the other points that I couldn't include after the topic was closed -

 

 

 

1. (another 'tip-off' to the fact) It wasn't just the gi, it was this - The only real arts an American would find accessible and therefore easy to focus on mastering would be karate, judo, tae kwon do, muay thai etcetra - the arts most westerners have heard of. So logically Paul would have to be closest to one of these. Guess which one Namco chose?

 

2. (basing characters on real styles) VF2 took it to another level entirely with Lion's crane (praying mantis) style, and Shun's drunken kung-fu influenced by the 'comedic' art Jackie Chan made popular in the 1978 Drunken Master movie. It took until well into 1996 for games to even come to the realization that real fighting styles could be represented more accurately when aikido and sumo wrestling were fully developed for VF3. Ever since this point games have latched onto real development of 'proper' styles rather than very loosely basing them on something that actually existed (as was the case with Paul and many others of that era). Since then, fighting games don't add new character's unless they fit into a specific new easily definable category - we've had capoiera, tae kwon do, boxing, vale tudo (twice), judo (done correctly), and shaolin kung-fu. They do it so well now the difference between Paul’s use of judo and Goh’s is incredibly vast because now they are actually trying to feature styles as perfectly as is possible, so you don’t have to look hard to spot them.

 

3. Two more character's that use judo (badly) are the first ever judo character, Ryoko (from Fighter's History then later, World Heroes 2) and Goro Daimon (KOF). Both use as much judo or even less than paul, but are very stylised with "silly" moves such as pounding the floor (Daimon), flaming spinning piledriver type throws (Ryoko) and phoenix smashers (Paul). The point being, if you knew how games designers worked back then, it was dead easy to see that paul was another judo character.

 

EDIT - and two(?) throws, it was FAR more moves than that...but now I'm thinking I may have got some of the moves from Tekken 2 (counters and other holds) mixed up with the pathetic amount he originally had in T1, but I definitely recall turning to my brother during a game of T1 years ago and relaying that paul used a judo based style, so despite the fact that he developed further from his base style (with hakkyoku-ken moves) he STILL incorporated new judo type moves (throws) in the sequels right up to present day Tekken 4.

Edited September 22, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

we'll have to agree to disagree.

That's my line...! (I was planning on ending this discussion with it a few times) Except the last time I used it (on a different forum) the guy didn't understand what it meant. Hmm....

Edited September 22, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[Agozer]

I thought of contributing something now that this topic is open again...

 

Wasn't it K´dash who said that fighting styles based loose on their real arts? In contrast some of you say that it's the moves are exactly the same... So which one is it? Or is it something the developers just pick?

[Wizard]

That was me?

 

*trys to recall such a time*

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

I thought of contributing something now that this topic is open again...

 

Wasn't it K´dash who said that fighting styles based loose on their real arts? In contrast some of you say that it's the moves are exactly the same... So which one is it? Or is it something the developers just pick?

Refer to some of my previous posts that relate to fighting game history if you want to go a little more in-depth but basically, they were all naive and attempted to look kind of real without going the whole hog and RESEARCHING fully a style they may have initially taken influence from.

 

Nowadays Namco and Sega have universally accepted that real fighting styles (researched as fully as possible, but still with moves that may contradict the style in question) are the way to go. All new fighting game characters since Virtua Fighter 3 try and outdo other fighting series' characters by coming up with a style that hasn't yet been done. They will basically start with the art/fighting style to be used and build the character design around that (sumo wrestling for Taka-Arashi, shaolin kung-fu for Lei Fei, aikido for Aoi, Capoeira for Eddy etcetera). Sega's character designs are specifically left as generic as possible, looking as much like a real user of the art and less like a 'character design' than other games would attempt. (Tekken by contrast adds stylised touches to its character designs, so for example a tae kwon do user (Hwoarang) wouldn't necessarily look exactly like a real one, this makes sense as Tekken doesn't stick as closely to real styles and never has done preferring a 'dramatised' version of reality).

 

2D fighter's are starting to reflect true styles far more in the advent of the waves made by Tekken and Virtua Fighter, that they never used to do. The technical edge of Karin, Elena's capoeira influence, Dudley (far truer to boxing than his predecessor M.Bison), Makoto's realistic representation of traditional Karate etcetera

 

Anyway, the styles are never EXACTLY like real ones, but a varying amount of their moves are from the art in question, normally less for Tekken, more for VF.

Edited September 22, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[ken_cinder]

/me thinks you guys read to deeply into a simple frickin fighting GAME, like who gives a damn?

[Wizard]

/me thinks you guys read to deeply into a simple frickin fighting GAME, like who gives a damn?

They do apparently. This is why I just stick to inconsistant storylines now.

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

/me thinks you guys read to deeply into a simple frickin fighting GAME, like who gives a damn?

I do, because I create games, I don't just play them for fun.

 

I'm working on the preliminary stages of a fighting game and have been all through the summer. Information like this is REQUIRED to even attempt such a thing with any degree of success. Analysis might seem boring to you, but it is my life.

[Fatal Rose]

It's ok for someone to make topics about who is the strongest street fighter, the naruto storyline, cannon guide discussion, or make polls about who would win Ryu or ken. But it's not ok to make topics about a characters fighting style in a video game?

[ken_cinder]

It's ok for someone to make topics about who is the strongest street fighter, the naruto storyline, cannon guide discussion, or make polls about who would win Ryu or ken. But it's not ok to make topics about a characters fighting style in a video game?

I don't see anyone stating this.

This thread started out as nothing more than a personal attack on the opinion of someone else, did you not read the first post? It looks like nothing more than flame inciting. Had I been here when it was started, I probably would have put a lock on it and thrown away the key.

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

It's you that didn't read the first post Cinder, the first post in THIS particular thread isn't the first in this argument. You would need to read our debate in the best boxer poll first. He made this a topic of its own to keep the boxer poll separate.

He wasn't just dissing me and my opinions, nor I him, he was just continuing our debate. There was no anger in these discussions (on my part at least).

Edited September 22, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku