Warehousing sites

[Robert]

At the moment it seems that unless you get the author's permission first, you can't distribute it.

 

I think it should be the other way around, that is, it can be distributed unless the author explicitly says otherwise either on his site or by a post in a recognised MUGEN forum.

 

This would take care of sites dying, because the stop notice disappears along with the site. If it was in a forum, it needs to be updated (say) every 3 years or it expires.

 

I'd also insist that every distribution of anything contain full credits to the original author(s), together with any limitations or licences as the author requires.

 

That should keep everyone happy.

[-SyN-]

I'm not here trying to cause problems with anyone but my stance as a creator and seeing topics like this isn't pleasant to the eyes of those who hold a creator status.

 

The main reason is that I myself have seen my works distributed outside of my website without my consent for whatever reason and myself being the author, I have the right to stress my materials which I spent my time to create and chose to share meaning released it for download to be made available at my site alone.

 

Not just me but I can name plenty of others who feel the same as I do.

 

As soon as we see the name "warehouse" yep we go into a rant for those warehousers or any that falls in that category can care less about whate we ask, but expect us to continue to create as if they think we make stuff for them, which we dont.

 

We create for ourselves and we decide if we want to openly share our materials with the community.

[Robert]

The main reason is that I myself have seen my works distributed outside of my website without my consent for whatever reason and myself being the author, I have the right to stress my materials which I spent my time to create and chose to share meaning released it for download to be made available at my site alone.

That is fine, while you still hold an interest in MUGEN. I'm with you 100% that you can control the methods of distribution.

 

But, what happens if you lose interest, die, or whatever. Eventually your site disappears and your stuff is lost to the world because of your previous restrictions.

 

That's where my idea takes over. Because you've lost interest, naturally you no longer care what happens with it.

[-SyN-]

But, what happens if you lose interest, die, or whatever. Eventually your site disappears and your stuff is lost to the world because of your previous restrictions.

 

That's where my idea takes over. Because you've lost interest, naturally you no longer care what happens with it.

 

True to a certain extent.

 

I have a good example. Reu.

He recently died due to a boating accident. He created the characters Evil Ken, Evil Ryu and his original character Dragon Claw.

 

All three of those characters are being warehoused. Evil ken and Evil ryu is a different story but Dragon claw is his original creation and believe it or not, its also copyrighted and not made to be distributed outside of his website which is still up btw and operated by his friends from his company Pathos and at a music remix community he was affiliated with.

 

where the stance on that?

 

-edit-

when entering the characters download page, DragonClaw is the only character you will find the phrase below before downloading.

 

Dragon Claw 1.1 WINMUGEN/LINMUGEN (14/03/06)

 

Disclaimer: All downloads are for personal use only. By clicking the following links you agree not to copy, modify, distribute or sell the whole or parts of the files without written permission of the Reuben Kee. This includes hosting of the whole or parts of the file on any other server or the usage of any form of graphics or sound. Should you agree to all these terms, you may download the M.U.G.E.N file. Dragon Claw and all likeness are copyright 2005-2008 Reuben Kee.

Edited January 14, 2008 by -SyN-

[BlackKnight]

That's where my idea takes over. Because you've lost interest, naturally you no longer care what happens with it.

 

That's an illogical assumption though. An author leaving doesn't necessarily mean they have lost interest and leaving itself shouldn't automatically relinquish control of their creations to the public domain. Family issues, studies, travel etc. could all account for an absence from the scene- however none of those things should impact the basic rights they have over their work.

[-SyN-]

Thats why I said I agree to a certain extent. I seen ppl leave suddenly without leaving a word. Like BlackKnight said, some retired from mugen and moved on as well as real life issues might occur.

 

Regardless, copy written materials or not, Those who create works for mugen still holds that right for their works not to be distributed, modified, etc outside of their sites if they ask for such a thing.

 

Warehousing is definitely something many of us on my end do not condone!

[Robert]

BK: As long as they update a notice on a MUGEN site every 3 years (that's a lot of time!), he can protect his work. If he doesn't care enough to do that, then he doesn't care about his work either.

 

Syn: The site is still up with the restrictions in place. That is still valid to me. When the site eventually goes under, then the restriction goes as well.

 

Also if someone has copyrighted something with the relevant copyright office, and covering all nations, then obviously the law would cover what happens as well.

[BlackKnight]

Don't ownership rights automatically extend 40 years after the death of / last expression of ownership by the creator, legally speaking?

[Robert]

Only if they registered it with the copyright office in your country.

Or in a country with which your country recognises the copyrights registered in that other country.

 

There's no LEGAL obligation otherwise.

All the so-called copyright we talk about is usually only in a moral sense - it isn't legally binding.

[BlackKnight]

Copyright is legally bound at the time of the first expression of an idea. It doesn't have to be registered to be effectual.

[Inky]

well lets put it in music terms.. lets say when the beatles broke up they treated those albums like mugen characters. they'd be gone forever. and there is no way in hell the artists that created that music would want that.

 

as an artist my self I understand wanting control and credit. but to horde a creation goes against the artistic spirit. something an art teacher told me along time ago is "it only belongs to you until you've created it" meaning once the piece of art is done it really belongs to the world. kind of a hippy statement I know, but I believe it's true.

 

now I could care less if these characters get released or not. I don't mess with mugen. I'm just commenting on the underlying tone of the thread. if your art (and I am unconvinced ripping sprites and coding them for mugen is art.) is paying the bills you have more room to biatch.

 

 

as a side comment about capcom and snk saying mugen is fan art. hahah. I have a hard time believing that. every ripped sprite came from an illegal rom. somehow these illegal roms images are transformed into fan art with a sprite ripper and a txt file. O...K....

[Sybarite Paladin AxL]

I agree with inky's idea though. Most creators aren't artists necessarily though.

 

But people usually just jump on the bandwagon like every person who's posted faq-text on gamefaqs.

 

Morally speaking, since you created it, it's yours. But if you haven't registered it with a copyright office, then I believe you don't care enough about your work. From a legal standpoint, if it's not an original character, it's not yours anyway. All that belongs to you is the bit of coding that went into it.

 

I myself plan to start creating MUGEN characters sometime this year. "Creating" is an overstatement since they'll be SNK sprite rips mostly, due ot SNK's sheer awesomeness. At that time, should I create a site and host them there, I will have no problem whatsoever to them being on warehouses. Because, as a creator, I create for the people. I use it as a medium to share my experience. And you know why I will do that? Because I actually thought this through and analyzed it, and I see it as nothing more than a selfish, childish, arrogant tantrum. I would know, I'm one of the most arrogant persons I know. And if they care enough about my work, they'll update their characters when they feel like it.

 

@Syn

 

"Not a valid excuse." Actually if you read what I said thoroughly, without flipping out and instantly replying with that inane line, you'd see it's validity

 

"Umm correction, I create stuff, you leech stuff. HUGE difference." Get over yourself. Reading comprehension must be rare these days... To make it clearer for you, "I have stuff to do" refers to OTHER, non-MUGEN related stuff.

 

"Um, I clearly read this post and from your view behind it, you can care less and disrespect an authors wishes." Care less? Hah... we should really grab a beer sometime, you'll be in shock after I'm done with you. Yes, so I go against their view and find their characters on warehousing sites. That's because I consider it inane. And you want to know what I do afterwards? I find that creator's web site, bookmark it and check it one or twice a week for updates. I never once will refuse to give him credit for his work, or to provide FEEDBACK. Maybe you've had some bad experiences about kiddies crying when your AI beat their Super Mega Shin Saiya-jin Akuma or something and you decided to generalize that we all whine and biatch about how crappy your work is. To quote you "logic error!" or as I like to put it "epic fail". that or your work really does suck and the kiddies found it better to moan than to provide input on why it sucks. I wouldn't know, I've never seen your work.

 

Now, on to explaining why I think this entire thing is just an arrogant tantrum. Because of pride. They put together something, regardless of how stolen it is, and all of a sudden "you're the man". Only "the man" decides when he may step down from his golden throne and present us with his gifts of great coding and sprite stitching (Orochi Kyo or some other crap like that...). Well guess, what, it all boils down to, if they're going to be asses about it, then I have nothing more I want to say to them.

[BlackKnight]

Let's work backwards...

 

I myself plan to start creating MUGEN characters sometime this year. "Creating" is an overstatement since they'll be SNK sprite rips mostly, due ot SNK's sheer awesomeness. At that time, should I create a site and host them there, I will have no problem whatsoever to them being on warehouses. Because, as a creator, I create for the people. I use it as a medium to share my experience. And you know why I will do that? Because I actually thought this through and analyzed it, and I see it as nothing more than a selfish, childish, arrogant tantrum. I would know, I'm one of the most arrogant persons I know. And if they care enough about my work, they'll update their characters when they feel like it.

I think you lost the point of what you were trying to say halfway through that.

 

Morally speaking, since you created it, it's yours. But if you haven't registered it with a copyright office, then I believe you don't care enough about your work. From a legal standpoint, if it's not an original character, it's not yours anyway. All that belongs to you is the bit of coding that went into it.

Is your argument that by devaluing the effort put into making these things that somehow less rights are entitled to their authors? Or that its cool to not care what that author thinks because 'they don't care enough about it'? As I said earlier- you don't need to register anything with a copyright office unless you specifically intend to draw financial revenue from the product, or expect contestation of copyright to be an issue. Copyright is established the moment of expression, ie. when the thing is made and released in the first place. Why should authors of MUGEN assets bother investing the time and expense registering when the copyright is theirs from the beginning?

 

From a legal standpoint, it is a derivative work and is yours. The fact that unlicensed properties were involved in its creation only affect financial gain from the product- not its ownership.

 

Most creators aren't artists necessarily though.

 

But people usually just jump on the bandwagon like every person who's posted faq-text on gamefaqs.

Nobody except self-righteous pigheads claim to make 'art'. Your inference is that if its not art, its not valuable enough to be bound by its authors wishes, correct? That's the selfish, illogical point you're making.

 

well lets put it in music terms.. lets say when the beatles broke up they treated those albums like mugen characters. they'd be gone forever. and there is no way in hell the artists that created that music would want that.

 

as an artist my self I understand wanting control and credit. but to horde a creation goes against the artistic spirit. something an art teacher told me along time ago is "it only belongs to you until you've created it" meaning once the piece of art is done it really belongs to the world. kind of a hippy statement I know, but I believe it's true.

You're missing the point of warehousing as well. Fair enough that the Beatles may not have wanted that for their music. It is still up to them though- they have the right to sell it, give it away for free, license it out or do whatever the hell they want with it. Warehousing categorically denies the creators of MUGEN assets those rights. They do not oblige themselves to necessarily even acknowledge the author, let alone any usage agreements or terms that author may have wished for.

 

 

Given Capcom's stance on this, it is all the same as Band X doing a licensed cover of a Beatles song, it finding its way onto an unauthorised Napster-like site with no fees, no DRM... nothing. You'd be saying its art, it belongs to the public and so the site should be able to host it. You'd also be saying its a derivative work and so is not really art or whatever... and that the site is still ok for hosting it. It is just as ridiculous as saying warehousing is ok, the only difference being the obvious financial reparations involved. And that is only a difference in scale- not in affect or morality.

[Sybarite Paladin AxL]

How the hell did you reply so fast?

 

edit: let me answer. you extrapolate too much.

 

let me also correct the first quoted statement. thanks for pointing it out.

correction: "and you know why I will do that? Because I actually thought this whole "I don't want my characters on any other website other than my own" through and analyzed it, and I see it as nothing more than a selfish, childish, arrogant tantrum." that should clear things up.

 

"Nobody except self-righteous pigheads claim to make 'art'. Your inference is that if its not art, its not valuable enough to be bound by its authors wishes, correct? That's the selfish, illogical point you're making." don't twist my words around. that's not very nice. Where did I say that they claim to make art? Those 2 comments were stand-alone and you linked them to create a counter-argument. No true artist claims they just made a work of art. You're right, MUGEN developers shouldn't care about any of that, but if they don't, then they shouldn't also care when someone steals their work, reverse-engineers it, and creates derivate works from it, much less when it gets more widespread. Because they didn't bother to copyright it, hence they didn't bother to empower themselves with rights over their own creation.

[BlackKnight]

You posted half and hour ago.. ? Btw I'm not trying to make any of this sound personal (although I realise it does). I just think the practice really cheats the authors out of their dues. In defending that you're trying to downplay the value of the author's work, which I don't think is cool.

 

EDIT: Added to the other post- you don't need to register in order to establish copyright.

 

However, you said '"Creating" is an overstatement' with regard to MUGEN works, which is an equally pejorative way of looking at it as saying it is not art and not worth protecting. And what's wrong with GameFAQs?