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Gryph

The Israeli-Lebanon Conflict

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you know who i miss?

Yitzhak Rabin.

 

Btw, someboddy, what do most Israeli's think of Rabin? i know he was assasinated by a fantical Jew, but what do the majority of Israeli's think of him?

 

oh and do they consider Shimon Peres as the equivilant of Egypt's Amr Mousa ?

 

 

(to those that don't know, Amr Mousa is an egyptian politician that is VERY loved, he served in several posts, and if nominated for president, would probably be elected by a landslide in fair elections.)

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Rabin is overrated. Many people here think that if Rabin was still alive, there would be world peace, solution to the world's hunger, and a cure to cancer.

 

I prefer Sharon to be the one in charge. Sharon was a strong P.M. with a strong personality, and that's exactly what we need now. Plus, he knows a thing or two about wars.

 

About Peres... AKA "the loser"... well, I guess the people don't really respect him, but they trust him - and that's something you can't say about most politicians. He doesn't really have a chance to be elected, but if he does find himself in the position of the P.M. somehow, I guess that with the skills he have he can do a fine job.

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dude, did you even read my post?

 

Yes,I did,but I don't think you read mine. The are disabling ALL possibible

means of entry - meaning ports,airports,roads and EVERYTHING that goes with that .

They are not leaving anything to chance.

 

as for the whole weak lebanese government, that's what the thing is, hizbollah is a strong organization with a militia, while the government has been going through hell trying to strengthen up (especially after hariri's death) and have a weak military (syria was doing all the protection for a long time).

henceforth, they're having a hard time dealing with hizbollah.

let me put it this way, does the Iraqi government have control over the militant groups in iraq?

 

No,the Iraqi government doesn't have control yet, but atleast they have publicly distanced themselves from the terrorist Al-Qaida and are constantly trying to stand up to them. and that's where the difference comes in with Lebanon, they have neither distanced themselves from a internationally recognised terrrorist group [hezbollah] nor have they stood up to them (heck, hezbollah even holds more than 10 seats in their government)

 

so no, i don't think it's justified to blame the lebanese government.

((and btw, hizbollah roams freely in southern lebanon, not northern).

 

No - ithink it is justified. A terrorist extrememist organization isn't supposed to roam free in any country that strives toward democracy,be it north east south or west. Let alone have so many seats in your government 0.o

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No - ithink it is justified. A terrorist extrememist organization isn't supposed to roam free in any country that strives toward democracy,be it north east south or west. Let alone have so many seats in your government 0.o

 

then i guess it's ok to bomb the Usa because KKK members such as david duke have/had seats in the government?

 

 

No,the Iraqi government doesn't have control yet, but atleast they have publicly distanced themselves from the terrorist Al-Qaida and are constantly trying to stand up to them. and that's where the difference comes in with Lebanon, they have neither distanced themselves from a internationally recognised terrrorist group [hezbollah] nor have they stood up to them (heck, hezbollah even holds more than 10 seats in their government)

 

dude, where have they NOT distanced themselves? where have they not said, we have nothing to do with them? where have they not said, hey we don't know what they're doing?

heck, even trigger happy bush isn't saying that the lebanese are responsible.

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then i guess it's ok to bomb the Usa because KKK members such as david duke have/had seats in the government?

 

had - being the key word there. and the last time I checked - the KKK is branded a outlaw movement. unlike the Hezbollah in Lebanon

 

dude, where have they NOT distanced themselves? where have they not said, we have nothing to do with them? where have they not said, hey we don't know what they're doing?

 

yeah . you're right - let me rephrase that. why have the lebanese government not branded the hezbollah a terrorist organization same as all the other democracy loving countries and helped in the battle to either supress them totally or eradicate the movement. If the Iraq government can stand up to a stronger Al-Qaida force against all odds in a wartorn country, why not Lebanon?

 

heck, even trigger happy bush isn't saying that the lebanese are responsible.

 

nobody ever said anybody held the lebanese government responsible for the events between israel and hezbollah, however,they blame the lebanese government's for their supposed "inability" to act against Hezbollah.

Edited by Permethium

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had - being the key word there. and the last time I checked - the KKK is branded a outlaw movement. unlike the Hezbollah in Lebanon

 

eh, no, there are still white supremist groups active in us politics.

 

 

yeah . you're right - let me rephrase that. why have the lebanese government not branded the hezbollah a terrorist organization same as all the other democracy loving countries and helped in the battle to either supress them totally or eradicate the movement. If the Iraq government can stand up to a stronger Al-Qaida force against all odds in a wartorn country, why not Lebanon?

uh, again no. Only the Usa and Israel brand hamas and hizbollah as terrorist organisations, the rest of the world (free or not) do not.

 

oh, and contrary to popular belief, al -quada in iraq is not as strong as imagined, al quada basically materalized in iraq after the usa attacked it, saddam hated al quada.

 

hizbollah however has been in lebanon for over 20 years.

 

 

and how do you ask the lebanese people to get rid of a group that more or less led to their freedom from israeli occupation that lasted for over 18 years?

 

nobody ever said anybody held the lebanese government responsible for the events between israel and hezbollah, however,they blame the lebanese government's for their supposed "inability" to act against Hezbollah.

 

so because they're unable to act, it's ok to weaken them further?it's ok to attack their infrastructure, attack their army barracks, and just basically attack them?

 

quite honestly, lebanon is now destroyed,what israel is doing, is destroying lebanon and won't recover until possibly a decade after the attacks end.

 

the infrastructure is flocked (Which mind you, they're still in debt for), tourism is screwed, foreign investors won't invest in lebanon again for a while,foregin citzens won't live in lebanon for a while again, the whole country is screwed.

 

except alot more people being bitter at israel, and btw, the majority of them probably won't be muslim, but christian lebanese, which incidently one of their areas was bombed... and according to what i last knew, christians can't be muslim extremists can they?

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the obvious questions i need to ask that no body seems to be asking is,

 

1- if israel couldn't get rid of hizbollah during 18 years of occupation when they were actually on the ground and knew the whole area, how do they expect to do it ina few weeks?

 

2- hamas and hizbollah have a history of attacking civilians, granted, that's terrorism, but now they kidnapped soliders not civilians, how is that terrorism? (and before anyone says it's cause israelis are conscripted into the military and don't have a choice, it doesn't matter, they're still military.)

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eh, no, there are still white supremist groups active in us politics.

 

Can you substantiate that claim with actual facts? The U.S believes in freedom of speach yes, but extremist groups will never be allowed to have major influence over situations,law or citizens. If you you know differently -please feel free to state the facts and examples. ( oh and secret meetings between a bunch of lunitics with white pillow sleeves pulled over their heads is not a example,since they don't have any real influence or power )

 

uh, again no. Only the Usa and Israel brand hamas and hizbollah as terrorist organisations, the rest of the world (free or not) do not.

 

uhm...okay,clearly you didn't have your facts straight before you posted

 

Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by Israel,[16] the United States[17] the United Kingdom[18] and Canada.[19]The European Union does not list Hezbollah as a "terrorist organization", but does list Imad Mugniyah,[20] Hezbollah's senior Intelligence officer as a terrorist. The EU also supports measures aimed at disarming the group.[21]

 

oh, and contrary to popular belief, al -quada in iraq is not as strong as imagined,

 

don't you follow the news? Countless suicide bombings, Al-Qaida gunmen shooting down Iraq military, police and civiliians in market places alike, Plus Al-Qaida released a statement and said that they are only starting - they are going to take strong measures against the Iraqi government and the Coallition forces. I'd say they are pretty much alive and kickin

 

hizbollah however has been in lebanon for over 20 years.

 

So infact the lebanese government actually contributed to events that led to the whole conflict between israel and Hezbollah. Since they didn't deliver on their promise to dismantle the Hezbollah organization or didn't ask for international assistance when they realised Hezbollah is too strong to handle. Harbouring a terrorist organization for 20 years and allowing them to have influence in your parliament certainly came back to bite them in the behind

 

and how do you ask the lebanese people to get rid of a group that more or less led to their freedom from israeli occupation that lasted for over 18 years?

 

Well, if they refused to denounce a terrorist organization in 20 years time, they shouldn't be asking questions as to why all this is happening. Hezbollah doesn't really care about civilian casualties -it actually serves their purpose - since they nestle themself into residential areas - and when they are being attacked they try to get the world's sympathy by saying "Look Israel is attacking civilians!"

 

so because they're unable to act, it's ok to weaken them further?it's ok to attack their infrastructure, attack their army barracks, and just basically attack them?

 

the basic rule was always: If you can't handle the situation on your own,you ask for help - and they would have been helped without a doubt. Anything to serve the greater good in the end. remember it's a terrorist organization we are talking about here. the reason why IDF is attacking

the infrastructure is because Hezbollah is using it to traffic weapons from

Iran and Syria and also using it to bring in reinforcements. using power plants to power their bases and bunkers ( and I'm not sucking this out of my thumb - it's all in press releases made by the IDF to news agencies and networks in the last week ~ cnn, time, bbc, Al-jazeera. and before you say that israel is only making excuses for their actions . answer me this then: why would isreal be wasting manpower, money and ammunition attacking civillians and destroying buildings and infrastructure - to what purpose? fun?)

 

except alot more people being bitter at israel, and btw, the majority of them probably won't be muslim

 

last time I checked the majority of ppl staying in lebanon are muslim

as for the christian area being bombed - refer to my post about hezbollah operating in civilian areas.

 

but now they kidnapped soliders not civilians, how is that terrorism?

 

nobody ever said that was a act of terrorism, Hezbollah did it because they wanted leverage on their demands to get more terrorist freed out of israeli jails, but it will never work - Isreal and most other countries do not

negotiate with terrorists.

Edited by Permethium

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Can you substantiate that claim with actual facts? The U.S believes in freedom of speach yes, but extremist groups will never be allowed to have major influence over situations,law or citizens. If you you know differently -please feel free to state the facts and examples. ( oh and secret meetings between a bunch of lunitics with white pillow sleeves pulled over their heads is not a example,since they don't have any real influence or power )

 

http://www.livingston.net/wilkyjr/link17.htm

 

that's just one of them, and btw, you OVERPLAY the power the political arm of hizbollah has on lebanon, they have a FEW SEATS they in NO WAY dominate the politics.

 

uhm...okay,clearly you didn't have your facts straight before you posted

 

Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by Israel,[16] the United States[17] the United Kingdom[18] and Canada.[19]The European Union does not list Hezbollah as a "terrorist organization", but does list Imad Mugniyah,[20] Hezbollah's senior Intelligence officer as a terrorist. The EU also supports measures aimed at disarming the group.[21]

 

you just basically contradicited yourself, so yeah, four countries consider them terrorists, but the eu, australia and most of asia and africa don't, how does that make it a majority?

 

 

don't you follow the news? Countless suicide bombings, Al-Qaida gunmen shooting down Iraq military, police and civiliians in market places alike, Plus Al-Qaida released a statement and said that they are only starting - they are going to take strong measures against the Iraqi government and the Coallition forces. I'd say they are pretty much alive and kickin

 

maybe you should follow the sensational news less and check the actual facts more? al-quada in iraq basically came into force AFTER the us attack on iraq, and are STILL weak comparitavely, most of the bombings and such are not al quada, but rather iraqi resistance.don't confuse the two together like the media does.

 

So infact the lebanese government actually contributed to events that led to the whole conflict between israel and Hezbollah. Since they didn't deliver on their promise to dismantle the Hezbollah organization or didn't ask for international assistance when they realised Hezbollah is too strong to handle. Harbouring a terrorist organization for 20 years and allowing them to have influence in your parliament certainly came back to bite them in the behind

 

you forget they had a civil war? you forget they were occupied by israel? you forget they were basically a CRIPPLED COUNTRY FOR OVER 20 YEARS?!

and you blame them? excuse me? why the flock was israel in lebanon in the first place? to get rid of palestinian resistance (which became the plo), and THAT led to the birth of hizbollah as a resistance movement, which in turn caused israel so many casualties that they eventually left lebanon.

 

if they didn't get rid of hizbollah in 20 years, they think they can in a few weeks? hizbollah was born because israel tried to destroy the palestinian resistance in lebanon, guess how many new organizations will probably be born because israel is trying to destroy hizbollah?

 

Well, if they refused to denounce a terrorist organization in 20 years time, they shouldn't be asking questions as to why all this is happening. Hezbollah doesn't really care about civilian casualties -it actually serves their purpose - since they nestle themself into residential areas - and when they are being attacked they try to get the world's sympathy by saying "Look Israel is attacking civilians!"

 

hmm, who do you denounce, the occupier, or someone fighting for your freedom? remember the quote " one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

 

hizbollah was NOT a terrorist organization per say when they were operating solely in lebanon because they were attacking israeli troops to get them out of lebanon, that's not terrorism, that's war. when they started attacking civilians, THAT made them terrorists.

 

besides, i can understand the attacks on the south where hizbollah is in, but why the north? and how do you tell civilians to evacuate when you destroy all methods of them evacuating?

 

and attacking a church is legit?

 

the basic rule was always: If you can't handle the situation on your own,you ask for help - and they would have been helped without a doubt. Anything to serve the greater good in the end. remember it's a terrorist organization we are talking about here. the reason why IDF is attacking

the infrastructure is because Hezbollah is using it to traffic weapons from

Iran and Syria and also using it to bring in reinforcements. using power plants to power their bases and bunkers ( and I'm not sucking this out of my thumb - it's all in press releases made by the IDF to news agencies and networks in the last week ~ cnn, time, bbc, Al-jazeera. and before you say that israel is only making excuses for their actions . answer me this then: why would isreal be wasting manpower, money and ammunition attacking civillians and destroying buildings and infrastructure - to what purpose? fun?)

 

who said they really NEEDED help with it? the greater good of WHO? lebanon or israel? power stations to power their bunkers and bases? a gurella(sp?) organization has bases and bunkers? that's news to me quite honestly. hizbollah was dormant for a LONG time, and it's political wing was becoming more and more moderate, and you honestly mean to tell me that you believe press releases by the IDF as fact? this is MASS punishment, not direct attacks, a naval blockade stops ships from going in and out, why bomb the port? destroying the runways stops planes flying in and out, why hit the fuel tanks and terminals, that's hypocricy, and most of the sane world has measured it as disproprotionate, IDF statements are not going to convince me or the rest of the world, of otherwise, Heck even an Israeli citzen (Someboddy) thinks it's too much.

 

it is well known, that it's against the geneva conventions and against human rights to destroy power and water, because that causes humanitarian crisises.

 

 

think about it, there's no food, no fuel (yes they attacked GAS STATIONS), no water, no roads or ways of getting away... yes that's really the best way to stop hizbollah... STARVE EVERYONE ELSE!

 

how exactly is the destruction of a power station supposed to cripple a guriella (sp?) organization that DOESN"T depend upon power?

hizbollah DON"T use radars, they don't use the local power stations for what they need (they use portable generators because they know power stations are easy to take out ) and they don't use anything else that requires power, how is taking out the power supposed to help? how is destroying a water treatment plant supposed to stop them?

they're going to drink dirty water? BIG DEAL.

 

but having water not go treated, is basically like poisoning a river, which last i checked was grounds for the whole world to destroy whoever poisoned it (i.e it's VERY VERY illegal)

 

even the usa didn't attack power stations when it went into iraq.

 

last time I checked the majority of ppl staying in lebanon are muslim

as for the christian area being bombed - refer to my post about hezbollah operating in civilian areas.

 

check again. first of all, a GREEK orthodox chruch was bombed.. A CHURCH. http://www.lebanonembassyus.org/report.html

 

Also in the south, six people were injured in a Greek Orthodox church in Rashaya al Fukhar after it was hit in a bombardment.

(had to make it in italics, because i think there's a quote limit.)

 

wasn't it illegal to attack places of worship?

 

The nearby port of Abdeh is hit by a raid, in which nine Lebanese soldiers are killed.

 

Two others die in an overnight strike on a fuel storage depot near Beirut..

 

The eastern city of Baalbek is also targeted by the Israeli air force.

 

 

A truck carrying medical supplies from the United Arab Emirates was burned in a raid on one of the last roads still open between Beirut and the Bekaa Valley. Ambulances heading to Beirut, were purposely targeted along their way, and had to stop short from reaching the Lebanese capital.

 

wasn't it illegal to shoot at ambulances? isn't it illegal to shoot at anything with the red cross symbol on it (or crescent or star of david) ?

 

Israeli fighter jets bombed two army bases southeast and east of Beirut killing 11 soldiers and wounding at least 40. Army command said repeated airstrikes were launched against the base, one of them during a rescue operation to pull out soldiers trapped under the rubble. The dead included four officers, the military said. Another strike was launched on a barracks in Kfarshima southeast of the capital killing a passerby.

 

 

the areas hizbollah operate in, are mainly shia muslim (Because they're not tolerated elsewhere) the christian city that was attacked, had nothing to do with hizbollah, but it was still attacked, oh and btw, do your checking again, lebanon is almost equally in number of christians and muslims, the lebanese government is led by a christian man, and christians and muslims have equal government representation and almost the same amount of people, check here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

 

the President must be a Maronite Catholic Christian.

the Prime Minister must be a Sunni Muslim, and

the Speaker of the Parliament must be a Shi'a Muslim.

 

nobody ever said that was a act of terrorism, Hezbollah did it because they wanted leverage on their demands to get more terrorist freed out of israeli jails, but it will never work - Isreal and most other countries do not

negotiate with terrorists.

how do you know they're terrorists? Israel has a shitload of people in it's jails that will never stand trial, and human rights, and world organizations have decried that, have them stand trial and be sentenced as terrorists, and then you can call them that, or else whatever happened to " innocent until proven guilty" ?

 

so how do you know they're terrorists?

 

and let me put it this way, Israel is considered a terrorist country by a shitload of people in the world (just because they're a country, doesn't mean they cant commit terrorism)

so does that mean it's ok for those countries and for hizbollah and hamas and all those organizations NOT to negotiate with israel?

 

it's all a matter of perspective now isn't it?

 

 

check these:

 

LEBANON Under Attack: Photos of Aggression

(caution for sensitive viewers) http://www.lebanonembassyus.org/Photos.html

 

Casualties and Destruction Report

http://www.lebanonembassyus.org/report.html

 

Human Rights watch.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/17/isrlpa13756.htm

 

 

Oh, and no offence, but Bullshit.

 

as soon as this happened, the usa and israel starting screaming "iran and syria, iran and syria, iran and syria"

weren't they screaming " wmd's in iraq, wmd's in iraq, wmd's in iraq" ?

 

to me, that sounds like war monging, even if iran and syria are envolved, i seriously doubt they're really that involved... i could be wrong of course.

 

all your responses sound like media fueled, so i'm sorry if i take them with a grain of salt. once you start taking IDF statements and Fox News statements on fact, that's when i stop trying to discuss anything.

Edited by Elazul Yagami

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Is there really a point to you 2 duking it out to this much of an extreme? You're 2 lowly citizens who couldn't make an impact on this situation if you spent 24hrs a day trying........sheesh.

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I was thinking about quoting all your posts and providing solid responses, but alas I'm getting tired of providing you with proof that Hezbollah is considered terrorists by many countries. No matter how many facts I'll post - you'll simply just keep on making them off as inaccurate/lies/propaganda to defend your stance on this subject. Even the whole EU fully supports all endeavors to disarm Hezbollah ( they wouldn't do that if they though the hezbollah was so great ) so yeah - I still say the majority of countries. and no, I fail to see how I contradicted myself, besides the fact that I exposed your lack of knowledge and understanding about how many countries consider hezbollah a threat to peace and stability. In the face of so many facts provided - you still maintain that hezbollah is "good" for lebanon.

 

Some ppl are clearly blinded by hatred towards israel - to see that Israel would benefit in no way by attacking civilians. You still haven't answered my question as to why on earth they would waste so much money and manpower and ammunition to simply destroy random targets because they can? I'm sorry - but that makes no sense ( or as you so delicately put it "Bullshit") - unless you hate Israel so much that you entertain ideas like that and actually believe it. And btw. Israel dropped millions of leaflets to warn lebanese ppl to stay away from hezbollah and extremist before they started bombing. If they wanted to pile up the civilian casualties, why would they do that?

 

you say that I speak from a media point of view, and yet you do the same when you quoted the attacks on barracks and the number of civillion casualties. ?? don't believe the media you say? hhhmmm. talk about contradicting yourself.

this thread could carry on forever with me and you quoting each other and media sources and saying "your sources are inacurate" so I'll make this my last post on this subject.

 

I'll end of by saying this: Terrorists need to be met with force, it's the only language they speak, releasing palestinian criminals out of Israeli jails should never happen - if you negotiate with terrorists today - they'll be back tomorrow making more demands.

Edited by Permethium

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