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Pixel Perfect - 1080p vs. 480p

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#23
PhilExile

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OK, thanks, Cos. I wonder if there is another way to somehow stretch the image, almost like the opposite CoinOps's widescreen fix.

What I'm thinking is:

1. You set the boundaries of your monitor's video - just like CoinOps/MAME, instead of creating a perfect pixel setup (512x448)
2. Set every game to automatically scale by x2 for 480p, x3 for 720p and center on the screen
3. There could then be an option to stretch the screen based on the user defined screen boundaries

Example: (512) screen width size / (610) defined screen size = percentage to stretch horizontally (8.4%)

Although, this too may lead to distortions in the image. Its all hypothetical and I don't know anything about programming, so please take this with a grain of salt. :P

#24
PhilExile

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Very interesting. By the way, what the heck does 'soften' do? I've never been able to discern a difference whether its on or off.

Yes, Cospefogo has hit the nail on the head. That's what I was referring to when I said to emulate the internal stretching would be impossible without altering the Xbox's video output. The 10x11 mode is a built-in function of the Xbox graphics adapter just like the flicker filter and display softening. An emulator can tap into these functions and make use of them, but it can't alter them unfortunately.



#25
Gilou9999

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There's some systems where the displays can fit the screen totally WITH pixel perfect settings like on a real CRT TV:

sega genesis/32x/sega cd

most time games native resolution is 320*224 typically for a genesis game so pixel perfect on a sdtv is 640*448
After set the screen size to 640*448 and NO hardware or software filter, in this case (and only in this case) i use the 10*11 pixel ratio trick:
the result is a screen with 448 pixels height (fit perfectly the screen) and ~600 pixels width (fit perfectly the game horizontally)

also neo geo since most games are 302 pixels width native, on the xbox 604 is a perfect width
if the neo geo game is 320 native i use 10*11 pixel ratio trick (and only in that case)

for nes/snes/master system, you will always have blackbars on left and right margin if you want to achieve the pixel perfect screen , that's perfectly normal,
but as far as im concerned in the case of nes/snes/master system etc..., the black bars are quite thin and doesn't bother me...

You'll also achieve a screen that match the real crt output with pcsxbox since native output is 640*480, so with the 10*11 pixel trick again, it will works perfectly
and also winstonX (atari st) as a native 640*400 output so you can use the 10*11 pixel trick with this one

#26
PhilExile

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I'm going to experiment some more and see what I can figure out. I may also do NES comparisons sometime this week. :P

Also, here are two other newer RGB/Composite comparison pages from Chris Covell's site:

http://www.chrismcov...gb_compare.html & http://www.chrismcov...b_compare2.html



There's some systems where the displays can fit the screen totally WITH pixel perfect settings like on a real CRT TV:

sega genesis/32x/sega cd

most time games native resolution is 320*224 typically for a genesis game so pixel perfect on a sdtv is 640*448
After set the screen size to 640*448 and NO hardware or software filter, in this case (and only in this case) i use the 10*11 pixel ratio trick:
the result is a screen with 448 pixels height (fit perfectly the screen) and ~600 pixels width (fit perfectly the game horizontally)

also neo geo since most games are 302 pixels width native, on the xbox 604 is a perfect width
if the neo geo game is 320 native i use 10*11 pixel ratio trick (and only in that case)

for nes/snes/master system, you will always have blackbars on left and right margin if you want to achieve the pixel perfect screen , that's perfectly normal,
but as far as im concerned in the case of nes/snes/master system etc..., the black bars are quite thin and doesn't bother me...

You'll also achieve a screen that match the real crt output with pcsxbox since native output is 640*480, so with the 10*11 pixel trick again, it will works perfectly
and also winstonX (atari st) as a native 640*400 output so you can use the 10*11 pixel trick with this one



#27
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One thing I found really interesting on that website is how programmers deliberately designed graphical elements in games to take advantage of how they would appear when viewed through a composite output. Check out the waterfall in Sonic on the screenshots page. Very cool stuff and definitely lends weight to the argument that the only way to play old games is on an old crappy TV. :P

Edited by + T +, 19 September 2011 - 10:58 PM.


#28
cba.gy

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Im confused, i always thought people knew that composite is rubbish (not to be confused with component, surely).
Also confused about the 1080p from an original xbox, mentioned in the title of the topic.

#29
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Apparently it's not as rubbish as previously thought. Take a look for yourself (scroll down to the Genesis shots):
http://www.chrismcov...nshots.html#sms

See how the line dithering in Vectorman shows up as a solid colour in composite? Well that's a colour that the Genesis would be incapable of displaying otherwise. Also the line dithering beneath the spotlights in the same shot actually show up as a blue glow in composite mode (as they are intended to) whereas in RGB and the emulator shot, all you see are the dithering lines. And look at how the waterfall in the Sonic shot actually looks like water whereas the clearer images show it as just a bunch of vertical lines.

I'm sure there are other examples to be found of how programmers took advantage of composite blurring to achieve otherwise impossible effects in games, but these are great ones. I'm seriously tempted to hook my Xbox up with composite cables now just to see if these effects still work. And who knows? I may even leave it that way. :P

Edited by + T +, 20 September 2011 - 12:01 AM.


#30
PhilExile

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Im confused, i always thought people knew that composite is rubbish (not to be confused with component, surely).


Not always, the NES has good, sharp composite output. Its just a matter of opinion. I actually prefer the colors from a NES composite signal to an RGB.

Also confused about the 1080p from an original xbox, mentioned in the title of the topic.


It wasn't just a comparison between 1080p and 480p in terms of emulation. My first post I didn't even touch an Xbox. It was just to show that Xbox is enough and you don't need 1080 or even 720p for these old games. :P

#31
PhilExile

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Hi T,

Well, the Genesis output is rubbish, but the programers used this rubbish output and combined it with dithering to create effects that the Genesis was incapable of doing on its own - doing more with less basically. :)

Hooking the Xbox up with composite may give you different results. First of all, are you hooking it up to an SD or HDTV? If its an HD, the display will likely upscale and filter the 480i signal being output. Also, since your using composite, your only going to get 480i and not 240p, which is how these games were actually output on the original hardware. Additionally, I think the XBOX's composite output isn't as 'dirty' as old hardware like the Genesis or PCE. :P

This is a reason why I really like Blaarg's NTSC filters. They aren't perfect, but they are pretty damn close to making games look as they did. I do like the crisp look of RGB with scanlines most of the time though, personally.


Apparently it's not as rubbish as previously thought. Take a look for yourself (scroll down to the Genesis shots):
http://www.chrismcov...nshots.html#sms

See how the line dithering in Vectorman shows up as a solid colour in composite? Well that's a colour that the Genesis would be incapable of displaying otherwise. Also the line dithering beneath the spotlights in the same shot actually show up as a blue glow in composite mode (as they are intended to) whereas in RGB and the emulator shot, all you see are the dithering lines. And look at how the waterfall in the Sonic shot actually looks like water whereas the clearer images show it as just a bunch of vertical lines.

I'm sure there are other examples to be found of how programmers took advantage of composite blurring to achieve otherwise impossible effects in games, but these are great ones. I'm seriously tempted to hook my Xbox up with composite cables now just to see if these effects still work. And who knows? I may even leave it that way. :)



#32
Cospefogo

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Maybe because I work with pixels (http://www.pixeltemple.com) I would never, ever,
move back to a composite (standard AV) connection. The image is so dirty. I am not
thaaaat nostalgic. For example, a great achievement for me was when I got S-Video
support for my SNES and my PSX. Wow! The image got a LOT better. And imagine my
happiness when I first got my Xbox plugged with component in a (good) CRT TV. The
flicker was gone! The image was crisp and clear as crystal!

So I have a half-new and a half-old vision of this whole thing.
I like my games with scanlines but at same time I prefer to get rid
of all that old "dirt", blur and artifacts from the original composite connection.

:P

#33
PhilExile

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Also, I noticed last night that I had 10x11 pixel mode activated on my PVM setup. This is why the PVM screenshot was too thin! :)

Cos, I hear what you are saying. People do crazy things to attain better image quality. Just look at the NES RGB mod: http://nfggames.com/...hp?topic=1592.0

:P




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